How to (force) feed 27 weeks russian tortoise

[Lies]

Hi All, I am new on this forum. My name is Liesje and we (Mihai, and me) live in the Netherlands.
I got Mihai, a russian tortoise, as a present in September when he/she was around 13 weeks old. I was not prepared for this at all and I did not (still don't) have a clue how to take good care of Mihai. There are a lot of information on the internet and also from the vet, breeder, shops etc. I try to follow some but every month I am at the vet with Mihai. Mihai is now around 27 weeks but weighs just 32 grams. Mihai is not eating well and is sleeping all day. This week again he got shot of calcium, vitamine and something from the vet. And I have to force feed him/her with purina pro plan veterinary diet for cats and dogs for at least 2 weeks twice a day. As I read in some post that is not good for tortoises and this whole force feeding is stressfull for Mihai and for me.
I realy do not know what to do cause I try to feed him so much different vegetables and weeds but he/she just wont eat.
I also thought Mihai has problem with his mouth cause it is opening so small that he/she cannot grap food correctly but the vet checked and said everything is ok.

I am so worried for Mihai that ate today 1 bite of a flower and went back to sleep. How can I get him/ her to eat so I do not have to give this purina? Or is there something for tortoises that I can give in place of this cat/dog food?

 

[TheLastGreen]

Hi, follow this guide https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threa...ise-any-temperate-species-of-tortoise.183131/
Also this https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/
@Tom is the expert
You'll need to make sure the tort has the right temps and humidity as stated in the guides.
The tort doesn't need shots, vitamin shots can be bad for torts, we need to make sure he has the right care and then he'll eat.
Stop feeding the dog and cat purina, it won't help
Breeders and vets almost always give the wrong advice, forget everything they've told you and follow the care guides info.
Soak the tort daily for half an hour in warm water (the tort should be able to support his head and neck easily above the water, the water should be a bit higher than the flat bottom bit of the shell, the plastron)
Can you send images of the tort and his enclosure, also what are you feeding the tort?

 

[ZenHerper]

Welcome!

So sorry you are both having this hard time.

The first thing you must do is make sure that your habitat is correct for this species. This is the most current care information:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

www.tortoiseforum.org

The purina food will have too much fat in it...it may damage your pet's liver.

Take the vegetation listed in the linked article and put it through a blender. Soak the tortoise in a warm mix of warm water and the blended vegetation. Do this 4x a day for 30-40 minutes. Some of the mix will be absorbed through the vent in the tail, and the tortoise may drink it.

You can add baby food carrot puree as well.

 

[Toddrickfl1]

Those vitamin and calcium shots are going to do far more harm to your tortoise than help if they don't kill it. DO NOT go back to that Vet. Why are you force feeding dog food? What are you talking the tort to the vet for originally? What symptoms did the tort have to make your think it's sick?

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Liesje, and welcome to the Forum!!

Obviously your vet is NOT familiar with the Russian species tortoise. If it were my tortoise I would immediately STOP doing everything the vet advised.

Here's what I'd do:

Set the tortoise in a bowl of warm water, and set it aside while you work on the enclosure.

I add about 4" of orchid bark (fir bark) to the enclosure, a piece of broken concrete to feed him on, a plant saucer for water, and sink it down into the substrate, a couple hiding places and a few plants, either artificial or read. I keep the plants in their pots and sink the pots down into the substrate. I use a T5 fluorescent UVB tube for light and a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) for heat. I have the CHE on a thermostat to keep it a steady temperature.

Here are a couple facts for you - UVB, either from the sun or from a GOOD light is vital for the health of your baby. If you have a GOOD UVB light the baby will be more active. Also the UVB works with his calcium intake to make strong bones and shell.

Tortoises won't eat unless they can warm up their inner core to at least 80-85F degrees. The food won't digest if he's cooler than that, and it just sits in the stomach and rots. So warm up the enclosure and keep it 80-85F degrees DAY and NIGHT.

So, here's your homework:

1. read the care sheet linked in the posts above and make changes to your husbandry
2. warm that baby up and keep him warm
3. soak him daily in warm water for about 15 minutes
4. feed him edible plants and weeds mixed in with some greens from the grocery store ( NO mammal food)

 

[Lies]

Hi All, thank you for the comments. I took Mihai to the vet cause he/she stopped eating and had diarrhea. We went to the vet and she gave medicine against flagellates. She told that the shell is too soft so for this I have to give this purina. After Mihai stopped eating again and had worms. Everytime he/she eats for 1-2 weeks and then stop eating again or eating just 1 weed that I planted for 3 days after nothing again.
The vet said to check temperature. I changed the UV light and the spot as the temperture was around 29 °C. I bought 100w intense basking spot from exo terra and 25w intense UVB 200 also from exo terra (advice in the petshop) Now I read that the coiled bulb is not good, so I have to find something else. Online shop adviced me a mercury vapour lamo uv output 100w. But this one also I read is not good. So I am a little bit confused in what lights to buy. But I will read the care sheets again.
Mihai was eating endive but wont anymore. He just wanted to eat carrots. So I was grating it and chopping the endive and some other leaves in small peaces so like this he/ she will eat at least a little bit trough the carrots. I tried cale, paksoy, romaine lettuce, different mixed leaves, pumpkin, courgette, bean sprouts, cucumber, chicory, paprika and spring onion. I planted some mixed seeds for tortoise, Mihai eats 2/3 days and after not anymore. I bought some dry food (komodo tortoise flower mix, nettle and dandelion and fruitmix leaves) and thimothy hay. He/ she is not eating these. I cut some weeds/ plants outside like nettle, geranium, Shepherd's purse, linden (I used google translate for the names, hope they are correct) This also Mihai did not eat.

 

[Ray--Opo]

Welcome and hang in there. You have been given some great advice. Now it's up to you to get everything in order. It sounds like you might not be keeping Mahia warm enough. Send some pics and we can guide you in the right direction.

 

[Lies]

This is the encloser. I bougt a wooden one but I did not get it yet.

 

[Lies]

Got home from work yesterday and today to find Mihai like this.

 

[Lies]

These also I bought suposed to be good for torts. But the first 2, Mihai is not eating. The last one is eated for few days after not anymore.

 

[Ray--Opo]

The flat stone you have in the first picture with food on it. I would go back to that or flip the other upside down and sink it in the substrate a little. You don't want Mahia to have to climb in to get the food. You need a CHE (ceramic heating element) for heat. Mahia needs total darkness at night. The CHE will provide that. You need a thermostat for the CHE. You will pay more at a pet store for the CHE and fixture. But you really need to get some heat in there.



You will need a domed light fixture to put the CHE in.

Then you will need a UVB light. It needs to be the flouresnt straight bulb like this. The coiled or looped bulbs that you screw into a dome are bad for their eyes.

I will let you work on that.
I am sure others will help you to.

 

[ZenHerper]

These also I bought suposed to be good for torts. But the first 2, Mihai is not eating. The last one is eated for few days after not anymore.

Did these come in the pots? The soil may have chemicals in it to kill/repel insects -- insecticides in plant leaves and stems are toxic to reptiles.

The plates above look like a good variety of greens! And wee tort is interested.

Make sure there is sufficient humidity in the habitat (a wooden one with an open top will NOT be appropriate at this age). You want it about 60%.

But the most important thing is to make sure the temperatures are correct. A reptile that is living too cold or too hot will not behave naturally and cannot eat and digest.

 

[Ray--Opo]

They can be picky eaters, so find something from the list of foods for Russians that Mahia likes and add those grasses to it a little at a time. The wheatgrass you are growing you can trim with scissors right on top of the food and then mix in.

 

[Lies]

Did these come in the pots? The soil may have chemicals in it to kill/repel insects -- insecticides in plant leaves and stems are toxic to reptiles.

The plates above look like a good variety of greens! And wee tort is interested.

Make sure there is sufficient humidity in the habitat (a wooden one with an open top will NOT be appropriate at this age). You want it about 60%.

But the most important thing is to make sure the temperatures are correct. A reptile that is living too cold or too hot will not behave naturally and cannot eat and digest.

I bought in pots in the petshop so I assumed that it is good for animals to eat.
I ordered a wooden terrarium 120x50x60 cm. It is not open on the top. As I read that they keep the warmth and humidity better than the glass one.

I have to go read about the temps etc and find the right ones. Under the spot is now 35-38°C but he is not around there so much anymore. The warm site is around 33°C and humidity around 40%. Most of the time Mihai is sleeping under the cocohusk on the cold site where it is 22°C and humidity 60-70%.

 

[Lies]

I have 2 uvb lights now. The coiled one and the mercury vapour lamp. I am using the coiled one now. Is it better to change it for the Mercury for now?

 

[TheLastGreen]

I would remove both, MVB causes pyramiding and the coil one causes eye damage, so best to wait until you have the fluorescent

 

[ZenHerper]

I bought in pots in the petshop so I assumed that it is good for animals to eat.
I ordered a wooden terrarium 120x50x60 cm. It is not open on the top. As I read that they keep the warmth and humidity better than the glass one.

I have to go read about the temps etc and find the right ones. Under the spot is now 35-38°C but he is not around there so much anymore. The warm site is around 33°C and humidity around 40%. Most of the time Mihai is sleeping under the cocohusk on the cold site where it is 22°C and humidity 60-70%.

Babies need to hide all day long. Move the hut to a warmer spot...not directly under a heat bulb, but warmer (~26*C).

Get more hiding huts and place them all around so Baby can move from hiding place to hiding place and feel safer. If s/he has to hide only in a cool place, then digestion cannot work optimally.

If the New habitat is a closed chamber, it will work well.

 

[Tom]

I have 2 uvb lights now. The coiled one and the mercury vapour lamp. I am using the coiled one now. Is it better to change it for the Mercury for now?

When they become inactive and don't eat, it is because something in the environment is off. They don't need vitamin and calcium injections. As Todd said, these injections usually do more harm than good in tiny babies.
Most vets have no clue how to raise or care for tortoises and little to no understanding of seasonal behavioral changes, or what to do about those. It is normal for any temperate species to shut down in winter. Their minds and bodies know that is it time to brumate. When we don't brumate them, we sometimes have to take steps to keep them up and awake. Additional heat and light is sometimes needed.

Likewise pet stores will sell you all the wrong products and give you terrible advice.

The next obstacle is on-line sources of info parroting the same wrong info that has been passed from generation to generation.

There is no way to know how much damage has been done by your vet and if your little one will survive it, but what you can do is get the environment, lighting and heat all correct to give your little one the best chance of survival.

Read that care sheet. Everything you need to know is in there. Here is a simplified lighting breakdown:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. You'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night.
3. Light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

If you get the environment set up correctly, the tortoise should come around and be fine. I wouldn't go to that vet anymore. Questions are welcome.

 

[Maggie3fan]

Got home from work yesterday and today to find Mihai like this.

The other keepers will tell you how to tweak your set-up...I noticed right away that big piece of lettuce and other veggies in your food dish. Your tortoise is a baby, so treat it like a baby. For my smaller tortoises I cut up all the food with scissors and mix it all around. And I mean bite sized for a baby... your temperatures and humidity need to be spot on, so please pay attention to @Yvonne G and @Tom for that kind of help. Remember, babies eat and sleep, so cut up his food, raise the temps and change that stuff...and keep asking questions...

 

[Lies]

Hi guys, thanks for all the information yesterday. I keep reading and searching what I can find here in the Netherlands. It is so difficult ? I have not a good idea what I am searching for.

But as far that I checked for the 4 elements for heating and lightning.

1) Basking Bulb, I am still searching

2) Ambient heat maintenance.
For the CHE, I found this controller. Is this what I need? Lucky Reptile Thermo Control - PRO II or this one that I found on Amazon? ZHITING Digital Heat Mat Thermostat Controller 68-108 ° F

For CHE I found 2 pcs reptile heat lamps, 100W terrarium heat lamps, ceramic heat lamp, reptile, heating lamps, infrared radiant heater for Lizard Tortoise Snake Spider on Amazon.

3) Light
Luxvista E27 Par38 LED Reflector Bulb 15W 220V Cool White 6000K Spotlight Waterproof IP65 120 Degree Equivalent to 150W Halogen Bulb (1 Piece, Not Dimmable) [Energy Class A+]

4) UV
Next week I will get the new encloser and I asked the guy to put for me the T5 lamp.


But what can I do for now to increase the heat for Mihai? As what I will order will arrive next week. (Let me know if I choose the correct things)