Humidity vs Bacteria/Fungus

[Joefnd]

Hi everyone,

I just returned from the vet due to a fungus infection growing on my 4 inch radiated tortoise. While I was there I was given a pep talk about the proper tortoise husbandry based on the vet's experience as she herself kept some for over 10 years.

She was completely against me doing a closed enclosure setup for them as it lacks the necessary air flow. Meanwhile, humidity and sufficient air flow conflicts with one another and you just can't have both, unless perhaps you have a dedicated tortoise room.

My question is how do you balance out 85% relative humidity and not have the tortoises be prone to fungal infection in a closed enclosure setup?

This incident hit me pretty hard as I have been maintaining this setup (according to the guide here) for over 6 months without a hiccup, and now this happens, to my favorite tortoise too.

In my eyes, I have maintained a very hygienic routine for them and there was just no explainable reason. My hands are always washed. Water dishes are cleaned and changed every day. The tortoises get their showers. Poop and left over food are picked up every day. New batches of fir bark is added when the amount in the cage has depleted. My temperatures and humidity are always within the acceptable ranges.

So, it's time for me to ask everyone if they had similar experiences and perhaps a solution. Hopefully it could point out a mistake on my part.

Thank you!

 

[wellington]

@Tom

 

[Jan A]

Hi everyone,

I just returned from the vet due to a fungus infection growing on my 4 inch radiated tortoise. While I was there I was given a pep talk about the proper tortoise husbandry based on the vet's experience as she herself kept some for over 10 years.

She was completely against me doing a closed enclosure setup for them as it lacks the necessary air flow. Meanwhile, humidity and sufficient air flow conflicts with one another and you just can't have both, unless perhaps you have a dedicated tortoise room.

My question is how do you balance out 85% relative humidity and not have the tortoises be prone to fungal infection in a closed enclosure setup?

This incident hit me pretty hard as I have been maintaining this setup (according to the guide here) for over 6 months without a hiccup, and now this happens, to my favorite tortoise too.

In my eyes, I have maintained a very hygienic routine for them and there was just no explainable reason. My hands are always washed. Water dishes are cleaned and changed every day. The tortoises get their showers. Poop and left over food are picked up every day. New batches of fir bark is added when the amount in the cage has depleted. My temperatures and humidity are always within the acceptable ranges.

So, it's time for me to ask everyone if they had similar experiences and perhaps a solution. Hopefully it could point out a mistake on my part.

Thank you!

Are the vet's torts still alive? If they died while in her care, then you have your answer.

 

[Markw84]

Humidity alone and a closed chamber are not the issue. Your vet is repeating some of the very common, old ideas about raising tortoises. High humidity and heat are also good for bacteria and fungus, so the issue is the types of substrate used, and how wet it is allowed to get. Something is allow unwanted bacteria/fungus to get established in the system. So the need is to look at basic husbandry issues in the way the enclosure is set up:

Is the tortoise soaked daily to reduce the amount of waste deposited into the enclosure? Food dish cleaned and changed every day? Same for water dish? Are live plants used in the enclosure? This is a bit of a canary in the mine for me. If I can keep a pothos growing nice and healthy, I like the parameters in my enclosure and my tortoises thrive.

All of my enclosures have orchid bard (fir bark) as substrate. Very mold and bacteria resistant. That is very important to the setup. I also like that the color of the bark tells me just how much moisture it is holding. I like to keep it a nice medium-dark brown. If too dark - it is too wet. If too light - too dry. I have certainly had enclosures that start getting too wet, but never have had any shell fungus or shell/skin problems with any tortoises.

I have seen that some in very humid climates do have to watch that their enclosure does not get too wet and the substrate saturated - which could lead to your problem with some species. If the constant condensation on the sides and doors of the enclosure is dripping down into the substrate, and the room itself is on the humid side, this can lead to water building up in the substrate and it becoming over-saturated. In those cases a bit more ventilation is helpful. I have adjustable vents in the sides of my enclosures for that reason. In dry climates, we keep them totally closed. In humid climates, opening the vents usually allows a bit of air flow to keep humidity in the right range. (85%). In extreme cases with humid tortoise rooms, I suggest using the humidistat option I offer and having a muffin fan at one of the vents plugged into the humidistat and set it to 92% or so to kick on the fan if humidity reaches those levels. I have only had a few customers in S Florida have to use that option, however. I offer this experience only to illustrate what I have found in dealing with this exact issue in making the most optimal conditions for tortoise growth. Because of identical enclosures in most every area of the US, I can really compare what issues are indeed different given identical setups. In all cases, the closed chamber type enclosure is by far the best way to go!

 

[Tom]

Hi everyone,

I just returned from the vet due to a fungus infection growing on my 4 inch radiated tortoise. While I was there I was given a pep talk about the proper tortoise husbandry based on the vet's experience as she herself kept some for over 10 years.

She was completely against me doing a closed enclosure setup for them as it lacks the necessary air flow. Meanwhile, humidity and sufficient air flow conflicts with one another and you just can't have both, unless perhaps you have a dedicated tortoise room.

My question is how do you balance out 85% relative humidity and not have the tortoises be prone to fungal infection in a closed enclosure setup?

This incident hit me pretty hard as I have been maintaining this setup (according to the guide here) for over 6 months without a hiccup, and now this happens, to my favorite tortoise too.

In my eyes, I have maintained a very hygienic routine for them and there was just no explainable reason. My hands are always washed. Water dishes are cleaned and changed every day. The tortoises get their showers. Poop and left over food are picked up every day. New batches of fir bark is added when the amount in the cage has depleted. My temperatures and humidity are always within the acceptable ranges.

So, it's time for me to ask everyone if they had similar experiences and perhaps a solution. Hopefully it could point out a mistake on my part.

Thank you!

I agree with all that Mark had to say. So many people all over the globe are using closed chambers with the same positive results, that it leads me to believe there is some issue with your particular set up. Lots of other people in Indonesia, Philippines, Hawaii, South Florida, Louisiana, and other humid climates use them and do not run into the issue that you have reported here.

Can we see some pictures of the set up?

I find that with my closed chambers in my ultra dry rainless climate I need almost no moisture added to maintain the correct humidity year round. Are you adding moisture, like spraying or misting?

Are you sure you've got pure fir bark and not a blend? Are you using any peat?

All of my closed chambers have some venting built in, and most of the time I have the vents wide open, but still maintain 80+% humidity. The idea is to reduce ventilation enough to hold in most of the heat and humidity. There is such a thing as too much of a reduction in ventilation, but I seldom see that in practice.

Perhaps you could add a small muffin fan to circulate the air in your enclosure?

 

[Sarah2020]

I have closed enclosure with orchid bark and never looked back. Humidity, fungus free and smooth shell happy tort. I do have holes drilled in the back of an enclosure that I extended and also there are vents where the cables come though which I have partially blocked with plastic.
Once you get moisture heat , substrate correct then it is easy. I spray daily with a flower sprayer but not saturated. Whem speedy is outside on a UK warm sunny day he has open protected enclosure which I dampen with a watering can.

 

[Joefnd]

Humidity alone and a closed chamber are not the issue. Your vet is repeating some of the very common, old ideas about raising tortoises. High humidity and heat are also good for bacteria and fungus, so the issue is the types of substrate used, and how wet it is allowed to get. Something is allow unwanted bacteria/fungus to get established in the system. So the need is to look at basic husbandry issues in the way the enclosure is set up:

Is the tortoise soaked daily to reduce the amount of waste deposited into the enclosure? Food dish cleaned and changed every day? Same for water dish? Are live plants used in the enclosure? This is a bit of a canary in the mine for me. If I can keep a pothos growing nice and healthy, I like the parameters in my enclosure and my tortoises thrive.

All of my enclosures have orchid bard (fir bark) as substrate. Very mold and bacteria resistant. That is very important to the setup. I also like that the color of the bark tells me just how much moisture it is holding. I like to keep it a nice medium-dark brown. If too dark - it is too wet. If too light - too dry. I have certainly had enclosures that start getting too wet, but never have had any shell fungus or shell/skin problems with any tortoises.

I have seen that some in very humid climates do have to watch that their enclosure does not get too wet and the substrate saturated - which could lead to your problem with some species. If the constant condensation on the sides and doors of the enclosure is dripping down into the substrate, and the room itself is on the humid side, this can lead to water building up in the substrate and it becoming over-saturated. In those cases a bit more ventilation is helpful. I have adjustable vents in the sides of my enclosures for that reason. In dry climates, we keep them totally closed. In humid climates, opening the vents usually allows a bit of air flow to keep humidity in the right range. (85%). In extreme cases with humid tortoise rooms, I suggest using the humidistat option I offer and having a muffin fan at one of the vents plugged into the humidistat and set it to 92% or so to kick on the fan if humidity reaches those levels. I have only had a few customers in S Florida have to use that option, however. I offer this experience only to illustrate what I have found in dealing with this exact issue in making the most optimal conditions for tortoise growth. Because of identical enclosures in most every area of the US, I can really compare what issues are indeed different given identical setups. In all cases, the closed chamber type enclosure is by far the best way to go!

Hey Mark, @Tom, @Sarah2020 thank you for your responses.

And yes, I have read and researched about the good of a closed chamber setup and still believe it to be the proper way to raise these tortoises.



I have attached the enclosure pictures for your reference. You can see the 24-hour temperature and humidity range as well. The only possibility that I see is perhaps over-saturation. But even that is a stretch because I do mist the top of the substrate with a bottle sprayer daily, but that happens when they are outside soaking, eating and the enclosure doors are opened for me to clean and to let fresh air in. By the time they are back inside, the wetness would've been back to the proper damp condition.

For now, I have added another top layer of fresh fir bark and will not bother spraying them at all, if that is the issue.

The substrate I use is 100% reptibark. Would've gone for a cheaper alternative but it's not available here. Heck, I even thought of using pine bark since they are more readily available here but that probably requires more questions on this forum about its different properties, viabilities and proper treatment before being used as a substrate.

As for the vents, I do have manually-adjusted vents (thank you paper tape) and would also adjust the sliding doors to maintain the proper ranges, although that happens very rarely.

On another note, I have also checked my other tortoises for fungus but fortunately they don't seem to have any. So it's only on one, and my favorite one

I'm still in a state of confusion and it frustrates me because I can't find the culprit. What's the mistake?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

All closed chamber enclosures are not the same. But they are a the same idea.
One that is set up and "running" correctly provides high levels of humidity and holds warmth without a wet upper layer of substrate.
Usually getting it just right takes several weeks or more until you see how much water to use and how much of the top needs to be sealed off.etc.
After that it's very simple. Very effective and very rewarding

 

[Markw84]

Have you had those bumps cultured? Doesn't quite look like just a skin fungus to me. Could well be, but also could be a bacterial infection.

 

[dd33]

You mentioned that you have other tortoises. Are any of them sulcata? Has this guy had any contact with Sulcata tortoises in his life?

@mastershake take a look at this.

 

[Tom]

Hey Mark, @Tom, @Sarah2020 thank you for your responses.

And yes, I have read and researched about the good of a closed chamber setup and still believe it to be the proper way to raise these tortoises.



I have attached the enclosure pictures for your reference. You can see the 24-hour temperature and humidity range as well. The only possibility that I see is perhaps over-saturation. But even that is a stretch because I do mist the top of the substrate with a bottle sprayer daily, but that happens when they are outside soaking, eating and the enclosure doors are opened for me to clean and to let fresh air in. By the time they are back inside, the wetness would've been back to the proper damp condition.

For now, I have added another top layer of fresh fir bark and will not bother spraying them at all, if that is the issue.

The substrate I use is 100% reptibark. Would've gone for a cheaper alternative but it's not available here. Heck, I even thought of using pine bark since they are more readily available here but that probably requires more questions on this forum about its different properties, viabilities and proper treatment before being used as a substrate.

As for the vents, I do have manually-adjusted vents (thank you paper tape) and would also adjust the sliding doors to maintain the proper ranges, although that happens very rarely.

On another note, I have also checked my other tortoises for fungus but fortunately they don't seem to have any. So it's only on one, and my favorite one

I'm still in a state of confusion and it frustrates me because I can't find the culprit. What's the mistake?

Yeah, that is not a fungal infection. That looks like Austwikia which is a terrible highly contagious tortoise disease going around the world right now. That is not the result of your closed chamber enclosure and orchid bark substrate.

It looks like you have a great set up there, but you might have gotten an infected tortoise somewhere along the way.

Have you exercised proper quarantine and kept all new tortoises separate for several months? When they are outside, are they separate?

Try opening the vents and see what happens to the humidity. I bet it stays high. You should not need to mist the substrate daily.

 

[Joefnd]

Have you had those bumps cultured? Doesn't quite look like just a skin fungus to me. Could well be, but also could be a bacterial infection.

I haven't gotten them cultured. But I've just been informed of another vet that could do that. Either way, for now I'll monitor his recovery. I've got some medication to be applied with a Qtip daily. I'll try it for a week and see if there's any improvements. God, I hope this isn't something serious.

 

[Joefnd]

You mentioned that you have other tortoises. Are any of them sulcata? Has this guy had any contact with Sulcata tortoises in his life?

@mastershake take a look at this.

I had a Sulcata up to a week ago. But he was locally bred, really healthy and I had him for 6 months before I let him go. They were never in contact too so I don't think there was any transmission, if anything.

 

[Joefnd]

Yeah, that is not a fungal infection. That looks like Austwikia which is a terrible highly contagious tortoise disease going around the world right now. That is not the result of your closed chamber enclosure and orchid bark substrate.

It looks like you have a great set up there, but you might have gotten an infected tortoise somewhere along the way.

Have you exercised proper quarantine and kept all new tortoises separate for several months? When they are outside, are they separate?

Try opening the vents and see what happens to the humidity. I bet it stays high. You should not need to mist the substrate daily.

Oh God, Tom I hope it's not Austwickia. It better not be. I've been reading about it too hence my paranoia.

I guess now the only possibility is that he was infected before I got him, which is slightly over a month ago. He's now in a separate enclosure all by himself. Really hope it's nothing serious.

Also my idea to mist daily is just to make sure there are no fine particles in the air. But I think it's not necessary anymore. I haven't sprayed for a week and the humidity is still consistent.

Speaking of that, do you think Pine Bark is a good substitute for Fir Bark? Do they have the required properties in your experience?

Thank you.

 

[dd33]

I didn't want to jump straight to Austwickia but that is why I was asking about the Sulcata. There have been several forum members in Indonesia posting photos of juvenile Sulcata tortoises with symptoms of Austwickia. I don't know if they were produced in Indonesia or imported from the infected farms in the US South West. Regardless of the source it appears that Austwickia is present in Sulcata populations there.

Do you know the history of this animal? He is probably 1-3 years old at that size.

Is everything normal with your Aldabras?

Hopefully @mastershake is well enough to chime in on this post soon.

 

[Joefnd]

I didn't want to jump straight to Austwickia but that is why I was asking about the Sulcata. There have been several forum members in Indonesia posting photos of juvenile Sulcata tortoises with symptoms of Austwickia. I don't know if they were produced in Indonesia or imported from the infected farms in the US South West. Regardless of the source it appears that Austwickia is present in Sulcata populations there.

Do you know the history of this animal? He is probably 1-3 years old at that size.

Is everything normal with your Aldabras?

Hopefully @mastershake is well enough to chime in on this post soon.

I'll update on the healing progress with pictures tomorrow or once there's a significant change.

But yeah I believe he's about 1.5 years old. He's 10.5 cm, so slightly less than 4 inches. I wasn't gonna adopt any new tortoises but this guy... He's really special. He's got an amazing, outgoing character. His head always points up, similar to Otis, the Eastern Box. I couldn't resist.

My aldabras are doing well too. No signs of anything amiss. Skin and shell are all good. There I have attached some pictures of them.

 

[mastershake]

there is one person who is sending samples to the usa from some sulcata over there. we are hoping they make it here well enough to do testing on them. but im positive there are some cases over there now. we do in fact have leopards who are positive now as well as 2 aldabra. for austwickia you can not just do a culture. you HAVE to do a tissue resection and it has to be a deep biopsy all the way through the skin. you can not just do a scrape or test the top of the bump you can and will get false results. anyone who says they can test for this must do pcr testing to properly find it. aw is not airborne it has to be made by contact. i hate to agree but from pics it looks very highly suspicious. just remember about the testing a lot of people i have spoke with over where you are have "tested" for it and ive seen some of the slides and they look nearly identical to aw on a slide but they were told negative. the issue is they are not doing the testing properly. check with them before paying for tests and make sure they are going to do it correctly. im here or you can message me on facebook my contact into is below you can send us an email also. sorry for short reply im barely moving at the moment from pain from treatment and my broken spine. im here and i will try to check in as much as i can.