Hundreds Hundreds and Hundreds of Rads!

Yellow Turtle

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FLINTUS said:
I think the thread is not just debating those pictures now, but the whole radiata importation/exportation/extinction problem-that's how I've read the posts after the 1st page at least.
To reply to your last paragraph, Madagascar is not as poor as a lot of countries. It still has tourism and plentiful natural resources to use-although as discussed that is causing loss of habitat. It's a bit of a catch 22. Due to poverty, tortoises are being eaten, but to get people out of poverty, funds that could be used for conservation will have to be used for people. However, from what I believe-correct me if I'm wrong here-, while some tortoises are eaten there, it is not 'in the culture' to eat them. Tortoises eaten per person, there will be a lot more in some of the Asian countries.
Eric, I know Madagascar is struggling in terms of conservation. I was referring to why due to the country's condition Yellow Turtle thinks it is acceptable for them to become extinct. Surely it is better to fix a problem, rather than say 'its already being destroyed, let's move on and try and protect somewhere else'. All through history that has happened, and most of the time it hasn't worked. In some ways, until recently, that was what happened in Mauritius-which of course saw the extinction of some very remote, isolated, species.
I will just point out I am not in favor of wild collecting, except for species rarely bred in captivity, or if there has been too much inbreeding.

Yes, this should be an informative thread about radiata availability in my country, when one people started bashing in with unnecessary comment.

Well not like our dear fellow tortoise God wannabe, I haven't visited Madagascar myself. All informations and articles including GBP are taken from the internet and if what told are correct, they aren't doing pretty well.

So why you think there is something wrong with people eating turtles/tortoise in some parts of the world? Asian people does that, as well as some guys in American continent. But I absolutely don't believe Chinese poking radiata shells and eating their livers, like 1 telenovela actor told in a TV show last year.

And we absolutely have different view. To me, saving people is priority over tortoise. But, if someone can get all those tortoise out from the destroyed habitat there and breed them somewhere. I would absolutely feel very happy.

Well, I don't like inbreeding, too. But I would opt for it rather than see them extinct.
 

Acanthurus

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Whilst I'm sorry my first post on here has come across so inflammatory, I'm glad to see the level of open minded debate on this forum.

In my post I was not saying that all radiated for sale are smuggled. Note that I said if you buy imported animals. I'm sure there are many great people captive breeding, but evidence from the amount of smuggling out of Madagascar suggests this doesn't even come close to matching demand.

Yellow Turtle, I'm sorry if you found my post unnecessary. Your follow up comments however have just confirmed my belief that many collectors such as yourself are either choosing to live in denial or really don't care where their animals come from so long as you don't have to pay that little bit extra for a CITES certificate.

You ask for proof that animals are being smuggled. I have been to Madagascar and seen what the hobby is doing to wild populations. I have been to many parts of Asia, including Thailand, Indonesia and Hong Kong. I have seen the animal markets and even met some of the more successful animal traffickers. As much as I hate these people, as long as there is demand I know they will exist.

I ask you to provide any proof that these animals are being bred in their thousands in Asia. How about some proof that the ones in your pictures are captive bred. You comment that they are all the same size and therefore must be captive - this is simply prof that they are large enough to survive being smuggled but small enough to be concealed in great numbers inside suitcases.

Yes the people of Madagascar are poor, and many of them have little access to protein sources. To support them and the wild populations of animals you don't have to give money to a conservation organisation if you feel so strongly about it. If you love these tortoises so much then pay to go see them in the wild. By doing this you give money directly to the local people, and make the wildlife a valuable commodity as it is in the wild.

Finally you mention Mauritius as one country breeding these in large numbers. Another country I to which have travelled, and a very beautiful one at that. It is however a particularly sad one for tortoise lovers, and one that has an unusual pertinence to this thread. As many of you know Mauritius is breeding exotic species of tortoises in an attempt to replace those driven to extinction. This island that once has the highest density of tortoises in the world in now completely barren, all because of the selfish actions of man. While there is hope that the imported species will be able to somewhat replicate the original environment, they will never replace what has been lost. The comments from people that suggest they are happy for a similar thing to happen in Madagascar are truly depressing.

In the end I believe there are 2 types of people - those who chose to play a role in protecting something they love, or those who are happy with ignorance being bliss.
 

Yellow Turtle

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Acanthurus said:
Whilst I'm sorry my first post on here has come across so inflammatory, I'm glad to see the level of open minded debate on this forum.
Acanthurus, you suddenly came, claiming people naive, deaf, dirty hands and still wish to have a nice and open minded debate. But of course, you are tortoise God, and supposed to be a valued member here, so talk anything you wish, Sir.

Acanthurus said:
In my post I was not saying that all radiated for sale are smuggled. Note that I said if you buy imported animals. I'm sure there are many great people captive breeding, but evidence from the amount of smuggling out of Madagascar suggests this doesn't even come close to matching demand.
Don't you read my other posts replying Flintus? Didn't I mention clearly that I don't debate about where those radiatas coming from? Didn't I debate over "rarity" and "eating habit" in Asian countries? Did I ever say no smuggling happen in Asian countries? But since you talk like one FBI officer. Well, please show us these particular evidences and I might like to read your stories later...

Acanthurus said:
Yellow Turtle, I'm sorry if you found my post unnecessary. Your follow up comments however have just confirmed my belief that many collectors such as yourself are either choosing to live in denial or really don't care where their animals come from so long as you don't have to pay that little bit extra for a CITES certificate.
Well, I found typical hypocrisy to your every words. You type nice, civil words, with good English grammars, and at the same time forcing your view upon others. Just from this one thread and you assume someone. Oh well, once again I forget that you are tortoise God. You obviously can read human thought. Now you just straight answer us. Does radiata really deserve to be put in CITES? What about other CITES species like pangshura tecta? Even you claiming the natural habitat is destroyed or whatever, many of the CITES animals are not even rare. That's the simple fact and many people know that.

Acanthurus said:
You ask for proof that animals are being smuggled. I have been to Madagascar and seen what the hobby is doing to wild populations. I have been to many parts of Asia, including Thailand, Indonesia and Hong Kong. I have seen the animal markets and even met some of the more successful animal traffickers. As much as I hate these people, as long as there is demand I know they will exist.
You hate these smugglers yet keep silence. So the only thing you dare to do is come bashing to a forum, shouting and crying that the world is full of bad guys. You even meet with those smugglers. Any attempt on your side to stop or discourage them from trafficking? Well if you can't do anything, then just stay quiet. As you say, they will always exist.

Acanthurus said:
I ask you to provide any proof that these animals are being bred in their thousands in Asia. How about some proof that the ones in your pictures are captive bred. You comment that they are all the same size and therefore must be captive - this is simply prof that they are large enough to survive being smuggled but small enough to be concealed in great numbers inside suitcases.
A hobbyist showed a picture of rare tortoise in his facebook. Then out of no where, came all the vultures. Most claiming from conservation organizations, asking, accusing, and even demanding that tortoise to be taken from him. So you still wish rare tortoise captive breeding activity to be advertised on TV commercials? I see pictures of smuggled animals inside suitcases, and I see obviously much more various sizes there. Neither this proves either one of us is right. We can only assume.

Acanthurus said:
Yes the people of Madagascar are poor, and many of them have little access to protein sources. To support them and the wild populations of animals you don't have to give money to a conservation organisation if you feel so strongly about it. If you love these tortoises so much then pay to go see them in the wild. By doing this you give money directly to the local people, and make the wildlife a valuable commodity as it is in the wild.
Now I'm not even sure whether you are that smart or that naive as you claimed us to be. You mentioned clearly earlier about those corrupt government officials, yet you really believe by visiting Madagascar can bring the people out of poverty. You have a unique sense of humour as tortoise God. Where do you stay when you visit Madagascar? What food do you eat there? How do you arrange your accommodation there? Unless every tourist visiting Madagascar willing to stay in those traditional huts where those poor people live, buying direct food from them, even paying them to be your local tour guides, have you ever thought how much of those dollars you bringing in even reach those in needs? You stay in nice hotel. Who do you think own those hotels? Poor people? You eat good food there. Do you even dare to try buying and eating food from those local people? Well, I can give you the answer. Nope, as I see many of this in my country. Your stomachs are too delicate to swallow those poor people food.

Acanthurus said:
Finally you mention Mauritius as one country breeding these in large numbers. Another country I to which have travelled, and a very beautiful one at that. It is however a particularly sad one for tortoise lovers, and one that has an unusual pertinence to this thread. As many of you know Mauritius is breeding exotic species of tortoises in an attempt to replace those driven to extinction. This island that once has the highest density of tortoises in the world in now completely barren, all because of the selfish actions of man. While there is hope that the imported species will be able to somewhat replicate the original environment, they will never replace what has been lost. The comments from people that suggest they are happy for a similar thing to happen in Madagascar are truly depressing.
Oh yes other men are selfish, we all know how good you are. Thanks for reminding us.
Yet dinosaur extinct thousand of years ago. So now you blame those prehistoric humans for killing them? No wonder you are in the sorry state of depressed now...

Acanthurus said:
In the end I believe there are 2 types of people - those who chose to play a role in protecting something they love, or those who are happy with ignorance being bliss.
That's call Yin Yang in China. 2 sides of the coin, good and bad, black and white, beauty and beast. Are you sure you are not a reincarnation of Chinese people in the past? It might be that in the past, as the Chinese, you liked eating turtles so much, that the karma brings you to be chelonian lover now.
 

Jacqui

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Okay, can we stop debating the qualities or lack of them in each other and instead get back to the topic at hand?
 

Yvonne G

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Moderator note:

Please remember that it really IS possible to debate the pros and cons of a subject in a polite manner. The very first rule in our list of rules here on the forum is:

1. Do not post anything blatantly rude and/or insulting.

Calling each other names can be construed as rude and insulting. So, rein it in folks and remember to be nice.


Sorry, Jacqui...I didn't see your post before I started mine.
 

tunafish89

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Yellow Turtle said:
Acanthurus said:
Whilst I'm sorry my first post on here has come across so inflammatory, I'm glad to see the level of open minded debate on this forum.
Acanthurus, you suddenly came, claiming people naive, deaf, dirty hands and still wish to have a nice and open minded debate. But of course, you are tortoise God, and supposed to be a valued member here, so talk anything you wish, Sir.

Acanthurus said:
In my post I was not saying that all radiated for sale are smuggled. Note that I said if you buy imported animals. I'm sure there are many great people captive breeding, but evidence from the amount of smuggling out of Madagascar suggests this doesn't even come close to matching demand.
Don't you read my other posts replying Flintus? Didn't I mention clearly that I don't debate about where those radiatas coming from? Didn't I debate over "rarity" and "eating habit" in Asian countries? Did I ever say no smuggling happen in Asian countries? But since you talk like one FBI officer. Well, please show us these particular evidences and I might like to read your stories later...

Acanthurus said:
Yellow Turtle, I'm sorry if you found my post unnecessary. Your follow up comments however have just confirmed my belief that many collectors such as yourself are either choosing to live in denial or really don't care where their animals come from so long as you don't have to pay that little bit extra for a CITES certificate.
Well, I found typical hypocrisy to your every words. You type nice, civil words, with good English grammars, and at the same time forcing your view upon others. Just from this one thread and you assume someone. Oh well, once again I forget that you are tortoise God. You obviously can read human thought. Now you just straight answer us. Does radiata really deserve to be put in CITES? What about other CITES species like pangshura tecta? Even you claiming the natural habitat is destroyed or whatever, many of the CITES animals are not even rare. That's the simple fact and many people know that.

Acanthurus said:
You ask for proof that animals are being smuggled. I have been to Madagascar and seen what the hobby is doing to wild populations. I have been to many parts of Asia, including Thailand, Indonesia and Hong Kong. I have seen the animal markets and even met some of the more successful animal traffickers. As much as I hate these people, as long as there is demand I know they will exist.
You hate these smugglers yet keep silence. So the only thing you dare to do is come bashing to a forum, shouting and crying that the world is full of bad guys. You even meet with those smugglers. Any attempt on your side to stop or discourage them from trafficking? Well if you can't do anything, then just stay quiet. As you say, they will always exist.

Acanthurus said:
I ask you to provide any proof that these animals are being bred in their thousands in Asia. How about some proof that the ones in your pictures are captive bred. You comment that they are all the same size and therefore must be captive - this is simply prof that they are large enough to survive being smuggled but small enough to be concealed in great numbers inside suitcases.
A hobbyist showed a picture of rare tortoise in his facebook. Then out of no where, came all the vultures. Most claiming from conservation organizations, asking, accusing, and even demanding that tortoise to be taken from him. So you still wish rare tortoise captive breeding activity to be advertised on TV commercials? I see pictures of smuggled animals inside suitcases, and I see obviously much more various sizes there. Neither this proves either one of us is right. We can only assume.

Acanthurus said:
Yes the people of Madagascar are poor, and many of them have little access to protein sources. To support them and the wild populations of animals you don't have to give money to a conservation organisation if you feel so strongly about it. If you love these tortoises so much then pay to go see them in the wild. By doing this you give money directly to the local people, and make the wildlife a valuable commodity as it is in the wild.
Now I'm not even sure whether you are that smart or that naive as you claimed us to be. You mentioned clearly earlier about those corrupt government officials, yet you really believe by visiting Madagascar can bring the people out of poverty. You have a unique sense of humour as tortoise God. Where do you stay when you visit Madagascar? What food do you eat there? How do you arrange your accommodation there? Unless every tourist visiting Madagascar willing to stay in those traditional huts where those poor people live, buying direct food from them, even paying them to be your local tour guides, have you ever thought how much of those dollars you bringing in even reach those in needs? You stay in nice hotel. Who do you think own those hotels? Poor people? You eat good food there. Do you even dare to try buying and eating food from those local people? Well, I can give you the answer. Nope, as I see many of this in my country. Your stomachs are too delicate to swallow those poor people food.

Acanthurus said:
Finally you mention Mauritius as one country breeding these in large numbers. Another country I to which have travelled, and a very beautiful one at that. It is however a particularly sad one for tortoise lovers, and one that has an unusual pertinence to this thread. As many of you know Mauritius is breeding exotic species of tortoises in an attempt to replace those driven to extinction. This island that once has the highest density of tortoises in the world in now completely barren, all because of the selfish actions of man. While there is hope that the imported species will be able to somewhat replicate the original environment, they will never replace what has been lost. The comments from people that suggest they are happy for a similar thing to happen in Madagascar are truly depressing.
Oh yes other men are selfish, we all know how good you are. Thanks for reminding us.
Yet dinosaur extinct thousand of years ago. So now you blame those prehistoric humans for killing them? No wonder you are in the sorry state of depressed now...

Acanthurus said:
In the end I believe there are 2 types of people - those who chose to play a role in protecting something they love, or those who are happy with ignorance being bliss.
That's call Yin Yang in China. 2 sides of the coin, good and bad, black and white, beauty and beast. Are you sure you are not a reincarnation of Chinese people in the past? It might be that in the past, as the Chinese, you liked eating turtles so much, that the karma brings you to be chelonian lover now.

Hi there, I am from Malaysia and I know exactly how you feel when somebody actually believe that Asians will "puncture tortoise shell and suck their liver". But please stay calm, as we can't change what they choose to believe no matter what we did.

I was educated by my parents and grandparents that both tortoise and turtle, are the symbolize of longevity and fortune, thus, we must not harm, kill or consume them. I was shocked when I read from some "well-known" tortoise care website stating that Chinese like to puncture the shell of radiated tortoise and suck out their liver to eat. I believe my first thought when I read about that, is similar with most, if not all members in this forum. Why and how could some people actually kill such a wonderful species just to suck out their liver??!! But rather than going straight to believe some unproven facts that are posted on webs, I decided to verify the truth by myself.

I know quite a few tortoise keepers from various Asian countries such as China, Taiwan, Thailand, India, Indonesia and I actually asked them whether any of their country have the habits of consuming turtle or tortoise, and the only answer I got from them is a big NO.

If MOST of the Asians don't consume tortoise and turtle, then why many people, especially people who know less or nothing about Asian cultures, beliefs and cuisine, keep accusing Asians for consuming tortoise? I found the answer of this question to be the media. Because some medias like to spread the hatred, or even worse, make their own populations look noble than the others by accusing all other populations to be uncivilized. They will often "amplify" some bad stuffs that being done by some bad people from a certain country(Usually Asian countries, mostly China), and claim that EVERYONE in these countries to be uncivilized and bad.

I believe many people who were brainwashed by the medias might still choose to believe that Asians do consume tortoise and turtle. They can even show some evidence such as pictures, videos, blogs that are posted on the web, or even better, their personal experience of visiting some meat market in some part of Asia. But please, those bad people that consume tortoise and turtle, are the very minority of the population. Some part in the Asia is extremely poor that people who living in that part had no choice but to consume everything that can be found around them. They are not bad people but they are just trying to survive. There are still some bad people who consume these animal just out of fun, these people are all A**H***, but please, they are just one in the billions, please do not label all the Asians to be these type of people.

Bad people can be at anywhere, in any countries, and be any populations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8KTE3lbI5I

Above youtube link is a video about how some BAD people killed and consumed an Alligator snapping turtle. As I am not going to blame the whole populations in that country to be bad people who like to kill and consume turtle, please do the same to Asians as well.

Finally, by posting this reply, I have no intentions of hurting anyone's feeling and looking to starting an argument, if anyone think that what I posted is rude, I am sorry, if anyone do not agree with what I said, it's your choice, but please be polite and be fair to us, think twice before you making any conclusions.

Please spread the love but not the hatred, thank you very much.
 

wellington

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Very well said tunafish89. The media will ruin anything and will tell the biggest lies. The bad gets the attention far more then the good. A few bad apples should not spoil the whole bunch. Usually, whatever will bring money and attention is what will be the headliner. Let's all keep what tunafish89 posted in mind when thinking about what we want to say about others.
 

Acanthurus

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Hi all.

I'm sorry if my posts have taken this thread for a bit of a curve ball. I honestly didn't come on here meaning to be a keyboard warrior. As I said I followed a link here from another site and was a little disappointed with some of what was being said and decided to play the devil's advocate.

My concerns come from the fact that no one on here seems to disagree that there is a significant amount of smuggling of Madagascan tortoises going on. Whilst we may have different opinions on the state of the wild population, I hope we can all agree that the pet hobby is responsible for a significant pressure on the wild populations, and that captive breeding is not coming close to supplying demand.

I have not stated, nor do I believe that these are being smuggled out of Madagascar for food. As for mentioning Asia as the main destination for the smuggled animals, please don't take this as me having a go at Asian tortoise keepers. It is a simple fact that the main port for animals taken out of Madagascar is Bangkok. I'm guessing this has more to do with the direct flights, lax security/wildlife laws and position as an international hub than anything to do with the local culture.

I don't claim to be any kind of an expert on radiated tortoises or tortoises in general. Truth while I have kept a couple of species in the past I don't keep any currently, and I have no experience with radiata apart from seeing them in the wild. I'm sure you are right in that they are well suited to captive care and will hopefully be bred in large enough numbers to supply the demand. My personal take on this is that this is even more of a reason not to encourage the wild collection.

If you buy one of these tortoises therefore I believe you have a responsibility to ensure it was obtained through legit means. If you are someone who has a true passion for this species, as I'm sure are most people on this forum, then I believe the simplest way to conserve the wild population is to spread your knowledge and try to ensure others who may not be as well educated on this species make the right choices. This was the main issue with which I took exception on this thread. I found it very disappointing that those who should be the most supportive were so negative about those trying their hardest to conserve them.

I agree that there are many being bred in captivity in some places such as Mauritius. Certainly enough to ensure the species will not go extinct altogether. A captive population however should never be thought of as a suitable replacement for a wild population. The situation in Madagascar may be dire, and at the current rate I would be surprised if radiata aren't in a similar situation to plowshares in 20 to 30 years time, but it doesn't have to be this way.

A couple have mentioned their dislike for the conservation programmes and their feelings about giving money to them. I think some of this comes down to the last paragraph where some may believe a completely captive population is ok, where I believe conservationists thoughts are squarely on the future of a wild population. No one is saying you have to give money to them if toy feel so strongly on this matter, all I'm trying to say is if you care for this species then please do something.
 

Acanthurus

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Yellow Turtle said:
Acanthurus said:
Yes the people of Madagascar are poor, and many of them have little access to protein sources. To support them and the wild populations of animals you don't have to give money to a conservation organisation if you feel so strongly about it. If you love these tortoises so much then pay to go see them in the wild. By doing this you give money directly to the local people, and make the wildlife a valuable commodity as it is in the wild.
Now I'm not even sure whether you are that smart or that naive as you claimed us to be. You mentioned clearly earlier about those corrupt government officials, yet you really believe by visiting Madagascar can bring the people out of poverty. You have a unique sense of humour as tortoise God. Where do you stay when you visit Madagascar? What food do you eat there? How do you arrange your accommodation there? Unless every tourist visiting Madagascar willing to stay in those traditional huts where those poor people live, buying direct food from them, even paying them to be your local tour guides, have you ever thought how much of those dollars you bringing in even reach those in needs? You stay in nice hotel. Who do you think own those hotels? Poor people? You eat good food there. Do you even dare to try buying and eating food from those local people? Well, I can give you the answer. Nope, as I see many of this in my country. Your stomachs are too delicate to swallow those poor people food.

I'm sorry Yellow Turtle, I really didn't mean to come on here and make enemies. I apologise if my posts have offended you and admit I could have worded them a little better.

Please don't take it the wrong way, but your post above did make me smile. I do know where you are coming from, and have been to many places that may have given you your opinions above. The situation in Madagascar is however very different. It is a safe, but by no means easy place to visit. When you go there you often do stay in traditional huts or very basic accommodation. Due to the poor roads there is often very little choice for food other than what is grown locally and whilst it may be a bit bland I haven't had any problems with gastro yet (touch wood). Everyone who visits a national park must pay for a local guide (usually less than $10 a day). In the better tourist destinations the guides are often amongst the wealthiest in the community. The government has almost no way to tax individuals, so apart from money from visitors visas they charge at the airport they make very little from tourists. In fact I think the Malagasy government would be more than happy is tourism ceased altogether as there would be less publicity about their nefarious activities. Most of the best and most secure conservation areas in Madagascar are that way as a direct result of tourism encouraging conservation. By visiting you give a money directly to the local population, put a value on animals in the wild, and give people options they would otherwise not have.

(Sorry for being off topic)
 

mogle

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Much like Acanthurus I noticed this thread on thereptilereport. I've read many of the comments and I'm curious about one statement that keeps getting mentioned in regards to large breeders of this species in captivity. Since Radiated Tortoises (Astrochelys radiata) are listed as CITES I, how is there legal trade for between countries with this species?

According to CITES here is the definition for trade in Appendix-I specimens

An import permit issued by the Management Authority of the State of import is required. This may be issued only if the specimen is not to be used for primarily commercial purposes and if the import will be for purposes that are not detrimental to the survival of the species. In the case of a live animal or plant, the Scientific Authority must be satisfied that the proposed recipient is suitably equipped to house and care for it.

An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is also required.
An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained; the trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species; and an import permit has already been issued.

A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the provisions of the Convention and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if an import permit has been issued.

In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

The following countries are signatories to CITES: Madagascar, Mauritius, China, Indonesia, Singapore, and Thailand. While again I have no doubt that there are breeders in these respective countries in southeast Asia, I just don't see how they could produce enough to fill the seemingly large demand for this species. This species also has a zero export quota.

Here is some further evidence that this species is heavily collected from the wild for the pet trade in Asia:

http://www.turtlesurvival.org/blog/1/196#.Utb0ONKRrz4

http://www.turtlesurvival.org/blog/1/149#.Utb0e9KRrz5

Thanks for your time, and I look forward to a nice debate.

Michael
 

Yellow Turtle

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Acanthurus said:
I'm sorry Yellow Turtle, I really didn't mean to come on here and make enemies. I apologise if my posts have offended you and admit I could have worded them a little better.

Please don't take it the wrong way, but your post above did make me smile. I do know where you are coming from, and have been to many places that may have given you your opinions above. The situation in Madagascar is however very different. It is a safe, but by no means easy place to visit. When you go there you often do stay in traditional huts or very basic accommodation. Due to the poor roads there is often very little choice for food other than what is grown locally and whilst it may be a bit bland I haven't had any problems with gastro yet (touch wood). Everyone who visits a national park must pay for a local guide (usually less than $10 a day). In the better tourist destinations the guides are often amongst the wealthiest in the community. The government has almost no way to tax individuals, so apart from money from visitors visas they charge at the airport they make very little from tourists. In fact I think the Malagasy government would be more than happy is tourism ceased altogether as there would be less publicity about their nefarious activities. Most of the best and most secure conservation areas in Madagascar are that way as a direct result of tourism encouraging conservation. By visiting you give a money directly to the local population, put a value on animals in the wild, and give people options they would otherwise not have.

(Sorry for being off topic)

Well, I forget this topic already, but anyway your reply just refresh my day. I'm in no mean trying to offend anyone here, especially you. But as an asian member, I don't agree with what seems to be like some prejudice about our culture, even though it is more likely directed to the Chinese people.

Finally, I wish you the best luck to your effort for campaigning and conserving those madagascar gems.


mogle said:
Much like Acanthurus I noticed this thread on thereptilereport. I've read many of the comments and I'm curious about one statement that keeps getting mentioned in regards to large breeders of this species in captivity. Since Radiated Tortoises (Astrochelys radiata) are listed as CITES I, how is there legal trade for between countries with this species?

According to CITES here is the definition for trade in Appendix-I specimens

An import permit issued by the Management Authority of the State of import is required. This may be issued only if the specimen is not to be used for primarily commercial purposes and if the import will be for purposes that are not detrimental to the survival of the species. In the case of a live animal or plant, the Scientific Authority must be satisfied that the proposed recipient is suitably equipped to house and care for it.

An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is also required.
An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained; the trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species; and an import permit has already been issued.

A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the provisions of the Convention and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if an import permit has been issued.

In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

The following countries are signatories to CITES: Madagascar, Mauritius, China, Indonesia, Singapore, and Thailand. While again I have no doubt that there are breeders in these respective countries in southeast Asia, I just don't see how they could produce enough to fill the seemingly large demand for this species. This species also has a zero export quota.

Here is some further evidence that this species is heavily collected from the wild for the pet trade in Asia:

http://www.turtlesurvival.org/blog/1/196#.Utb0ONKRrz4

http://www.turtlesurvival.org/blog/1/149#.Utb0e9KRrz5

Thanks for your time, and I look forward to a nice debate.

Michael

Hi Michael, that's a very detail sharing of CITES rules. But believe me, maybe like 80% of asian people won't care a shiit about those rules. Don't take it the wrong way, but that would include majority of people living outside asian countries, including western and US. And do you dare to claim that there is no smuggling happening in western and US? Have you ever tried to google "reptile smuggling in US/Europe"??

Although once again, I don't really get it, since in this thread it seems no one (including me) objecting about "whether there is tortoise smuggling happening in asian countries".

So what's your point of asking more of a nice debate and showing proof of smuggling in asian countries?
 
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Latest smuggling!! More than 250 tortoises..

Trust me, they won't be serve as food!

ImageUploadedByTortForum1391700691.370178.jpg
ImageUploadedByTortForum1391700716.689001.jpg

And of course they're not mine..
 
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enchilada

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Yes, this should be an informative thread about radiata availability in my country, when one people started bashing in with unnecessary comment.

Well not like our dear fellow tortoise God wannabe, I haven't visited Madagascar myself. All informations and articles including GBP are taken from the internet and if what told are correct, they aren't doing pretty well.

So why you think there is something wrong with people eating turtles/tortoise in some parts of the world? Asian people does that, as well as some guys in American continent. But I absolutely don't believe Chinese poking radiata shells and eating their livers, like 1 telenovela actor told in a TV show last year.

And we absolutely have different view. To me, saving people is priority over tortoise. But, if someone can get all those tortoise out from the destroyed habitat there and breed them somewhere. I would absolutely feel very happy.

Well, I don't like inbreeding, too. But I would opt for it rather than see them extinct.

one average looking radiata cost about $1000~2000 in China, why would a chinese man pay $1000 to eat a small radiata, where snapping turtle is only around $5/pound ( snapping /slider/reeves turtles are produced in millions by turtle farms each year in china)

(btw, i heard the "liver eating" myth couple years ago and it was blaming japanese. Why they always pick on asians? )
 

Jabuticaba

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Well.. If these radiated are in Indonesia.. the good thing is that those cuties won't be sold as food..
We love tortoise very much.. we won't eat them.. and no such thing as tortoise eating in Indonesia :)
That's good to know that they won't be eaten in Indonesia. It's too bad that they'll still be sold to other countries, where they may become food.


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emystiong

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These just the 2.5-4" lot .

There's more , some smaller , some larger !!

Having a communal soak .

For now as pet only before grading !!




Cheers
SAM

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