Hybrid animals

[t_mclellan]

Hybrid
This thread is an offshoot from;
"Where is Dots from" by cordell
&
"1, F1, F2 Generations question" by Madkins007

I wrote this to deliberately instigate a debate!

To explain a "Hybrid" is complicated & simple at the same time.
I think I'll let "Wiki" do it!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)

Here are some interesting sites;

http://www.oddee.com/item_96640.aspx

http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hybrid-cats.htm

I think this thread would be a good place to show some photos of hybrid tortoises & to express our opinions on these animals.
For good or bad, here we go!

I for 1 do not judge people that want to mix it up a little!
I have in the past working with others produced hybrid animals.
Crocodiles, Snakes, Falcons, Tortoises & Turtles. All with specific purposes in mind.
NEVER has any of the animals I helped produce been represented as anything other than what it was! Also I have never SOLD a hybrid EVER!
My problem with hybrid animals is when people misrepresent them as something they are not!
I feel that hybrids should never be sold or at the very least TRACKED there entire life!

The tortoises that I keep are;
Group 1) Colombian Redfoots (breeding)
Group 2) Cherry Head Redfoots (not breeding)

If I choose to cross the 2 that's my business. You wont see them for sale!
I say that because its true.
Fact is, no matter what anyone says about hybrids, Some people will make them no matter what.

I covered how hybrids happen before so I wont do it again,
There are some very reputable people that have accidentally (some deliberately) produced hybrids. That does not make them bad people or less reputable!
The problem (in my eyes) arises when people misrepresent the animals as something they are not!

In any case I feel founder stock of ALL PURE animal types should & must be maintained at all cost!

 

[moswen]

i was actually unaware that there was such a thing as a hybrid tortoise. i feel as though that might be as difficult as mating a mountain lion with a tiger...?

but, if it can happen, maybe in 200 years we could create a new breed of tortoise! one that stays small, looks pleasing, has a wonderful personality (not to say that all our little tortoises don't!!), doesn't need special lighting or heat, doesn't need calcium or other suppliments, can live on ANY type of substrate, doesn't poop, can eat lettuce as a staple, can live in any sized GLASS aquarium you want it to, stops eating but still lives when you stop feeding it, goes dormant when it's not convenient for you to care for it and wakes up when you've magically "got the time for it again," and i think we'd have ourselves the perfect tortoise!!

those are my thoughts anyways... LOL!!

 

[t_mclellan]

That might take a bit longer than 200 years.

 

[chairman]

Just to be clear, are we talking about creating hybrid tortoise types by breeding, say, sulcatas with leopards, or are we talking about breeding different types of the same general species together, like your redfoot example?

I would think that breeding different varieties of the same general tortoise wouldn't provoke a lot of debate. You're not really mixing species, just subspecies, and the biologists involved in determining what the subspecies are seem to be changing their mind all the time anyway.

The other variety of creating hybrids... why bother? If you want to breed "rare" tortoises, it'd be better to focus your attention on the top 5 or 10 of the tortoises in trouble list than to make your own subspecies. There are a lot of torts out there that don't have the benefit of having established captive breeding populations, and I think we should direct our attention to saving them first.

 

[t_mclellan]

I think maybe I should have mentioned,
In-breeding & line-breeding & how they differ from a true hybrid.
But I'll let someone else do that I think.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Mike the jury is still out [ in some minds ] and/or has/has not determined a verdict [ in other minds ].. as to whether different regions in South America produce different 'carbonaria species/sub-species or regional color variations. I ain't touch'in it! I SAID I AM NOT INVOLVED IN THAT DEBATE IN ANY WAY... I AM TOTALLY IGNORANT OF THE FACT BECAUSE I [ like many others ] DON'T KNOW GOD'S INTENT. { an 'old-timer' and I have agreed that I will just claim to raise nice hatchlings per the guidelines established over the past number of years }

moswen - they CAN ( "cross-breed" - according to some )

This is the pic that created an uproar among certain "all-knowing" [ in their minds ] herps.. see date in pic.

This was a dark diabolical scheme to infiltrate and destroy the entire world population of carbonaria species/sub-species blood-lines!
I acquired the female in Jan. '06 from someone that claimed she made eggs but none hatched.. so we agreed to put her under my 'proven' Northern males to see what would happen. At that time she was not quite 11" SCL.. [ that 'someone' had never hatched a tortoise egg ].. so she may have been small also.

Several eggs later.. ONE egg hatched out of a 5 & 6 egg clutch for several clutches.. on a 5-6 week cycle.. 9 months out of the year. She has produced viable eggs from the 2 Northern males until Jan. '10 even tho' they were seperated July '08. The most hatched out of any individual 5-6 egg clutch has been 2.. so my diabolical plan has failed

The last hatchling - ( it incubated for 175 days as I recall ) -

The male Brazilian she is with now is 9+" SCL.. no hatchlings out of the past 8 eggs dating as recent as 10/26/09 - is he "mature" is the question now?

Posted on my web site for all the world to see is this statement that defines the code used for available hatchlings and their origin:

BR=Brazilian female laid the eggs these hatched from.
These hatchlings could have Brazilian and/or Northern blood in them.
[ prior to July '08 there was exposure to "Northern" males..
and no one is exactly sure how long a female can carry the sperm ]

Examples of these described above -

See the 'common' design on the top of their heads?

Terry K

 

[jackrat]

I have no problem with it,as long as they are sold as such. All the dog breeds we know today have been created this way.Not to mention cows, horses,chickens and most other domesticated animals.I have no interest in doing it. My goal is to raise some beautiful redfoots,and I feel I have the foundation brood stock to do it. But those are some outstanding looking babies,Terry.

 

[egyptiandan]

Hybrid is a bit mis-leading. Breeding different subspecies together would get you crosses (same species). Breeding different species together will get you a hybrid.
If you want to talk Redfoots, at best the different types would be subspecies, than all breeding between types would be crosses. Crosses happen fairly often in the wild, hybrids don't.
I'm not in favor of crosses or hybrids produced in captivity. But crosses that happen in the wild are a different story. As long as you tell people what you have and what you are selling, than I see no problem with selling hatchlings.
I have seen and heard of a few different hybrids being produced. Testudo graeca/T. marginata, T.graeca/T.hermanni, T.hermanni/T.horsfieldii, Indotestudo elongata/I. travancorica, Centrochelys sulcata/Stigmochelys pardalis, Gopherus agassizii/G. berlandieri and Astrochelys radiata/Chelonoidis carbonaria.
Here is a T.graeca/T.marginata hybrid
http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=208202&highlight=hybrid#post208202
Here is a Astrochelys radiata/Chelonoidis carbonaria hybrid

Danny

 

[Madkins007]

I would not buy a 'customized', intentionally crossed, or hybrid herp, nor would I intentionally breed them- but as long as the animals are properly represented and not exhibiting health issues because of the manipulation, I have no problem with it.

It would be interesting to see what color morphs, etc. you could do in a hundred generations or so, but I won't be around to enjoy them!

 

[GBtortoises]

I'm with Madkins for the most part: "I would not buy a 'customized', intentionally crossed, or hybrid herp, nor would I intentionally breed them."

But I am not for them being "man-made" for any reason. I believe that if hybrids are meant to happen it's up to mother nature to do so for what ever evolutionary reasons necessary.

I guess I just don't get the point of it. I'm not into "designer" anything, nevermind reptiles. I like them for what they are in their natural form.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Virtually 85% ( wild guess ) of the Northern redfoot tortoises I have produced are from Guyana/Suriname X Colombian/we think. Does that make them 'crosses'? The other 15% are 'pure' Guyana/Suriname.

I've been building up a collection of 'cherryheads' over the past 5 years or so waiting for them to 'mature'. So given the opportunity to acquire an "egg-laying" female was ( I felt ) an opportunity.. for a future breeding project. At that time I did not have space ( enough inside ) to keep them seperated.. so the rest is history. Bad judgement.. lack of planning.. greed.. stupidity -- I'm sure there are others that y'all can use to describe my decisions.. of what should have been done 'outside' a few months later as well. None the less history has been written.. a short chapter.. I doubt she is eternally 'tainted' and will soon become clean again. In the mean time I'll be black-listed by a few.. shunned by some and hopefully forgiven by the rest.
Bottom-line it doesn't matter.. it's done.. everyones opinions can't change it now.

How long does it take for her eggs to produce "pure"? Anyone?

I do know that those that acquired these babies have been happy with them.. ask chewbecca!

Terry K

 

[Yvonne G]

I think Danny's "crosses" are also referred to as intergrades. You've probably all seen them in the box turtles. And I'm sure there are many Manouria intergrades in the wild, because their territories overlap. I have 5 intergrade Manouria emys emys/ Manouria emys phayrei that I accidentally caused and hatched about 13 years or so ago. When you look at them you see Mee or Mep, not a mixture of the two. Right now, I have left two Mee and three Mep. As soon as I realized that the Mee's eggs were fertile, I immediately separated the two sub species. I thought "he" was too young to be breeding...WRONG!!

I would never have done this on purpose. I don't believe in mixing the breedings.

 

[cdmay]

I tend to agree with everyone's opinion in this issue, to a point.
Nerd mentioned what happened in his case when two (really pretty) animals of different and widely separated populations got together and produced nice looking hatchlings. Terry sold them with the information about their lineage so there was no confusion to the buyer about what they were. No problem.
But tortoises live a long time. What happens down the road? Will all those who either intentionally or accidentally produce similar offsping be that honest? I doubt it. Besides, who is going to remember what an animal's genetic background is years from now?
What concerns me is that in the long run captive tortoise culture might resemble what has occured with Boa constrictors in captivity. Go to any reptile Expo. Look at the classified ads on the various web sites. You see countless combinations of mutations, population mixes, outright hybrids and other deliberate manipulations of genetics. The result is that it has become difficult to even find a captive produced boa that resembles any of the wild phenotypes. They now all look the same. The genetics of these captive animals are so screwed up that most buyers have no idea what 'kind' of boa they are really getting. Heck, the breeders themselves don't even know. This is a shame and a result of pure greed.
Boa breeders produced albino Colombian boas but that wasn't enough so they bred those albinos to Peruvian redtails to get the albino gene into them. That wasn't enough either so of course, those hybrids had to be bred to the big Surinam redtails, and on and on. They did the same things with the color and pattern mutations too. Each time these mixes took place the original phenotypes became more and more diluted...the offspring that at one time could be indentified at a glance all started to look the same.
If you want to see any of the Boa constrictor sub-species, unique locality forms, or geographic variants as they are found in the wild you have to seek out a breeder who has specialized in keeping these naturally occuring types pure. Or at least as pure as possible.
Reptile keepers should have taken a lesson from the tropical fish people who are now striving to keep unique populations of fish as pure as they can. But sadly, we are stuck with Frankenboa.
I would hate to see that happen with tortoises too.

 

[t_mclellan]

& thats the kind of post that I had hoped would come out in this thread!
Thank you Carl.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Remember the saying? -

When you're in the 'right' you need no defense..
When you're in the wrong you 'have' no defense!

Was I trying to make excuses for my decision? NO!!!
Was I admitting I had made a questionable [ at best ] decision 4 years ago? YES

And what was the point? We're all 'players' in the grand theme of things that we all can learn from.................. and try not to make the 'same' mistakes again --- as a community of concerned keepers/breeders!

This IS about the critters.. not the critics!

Thanks again you "old-timers" for your time and contributions...

Terry K

---

And that Carl is exactly what I have intended to be heard - it is becoming more difficult to find 'old-line' blood-lines in even our South American tortoises today...

NERD

BTW.. I have tried to establish the 'locale' of all my breeders.. "That's from Guyana I think they said?" "She's from a farm in Brazil.. raised from a 4" import.. at least that's what they said".

I know where this young male came from -

 

[allegraf]

Terry,

I am curious by what you mean by "old blood lines" are you speaking about the age of the torts or the question of purity of the torts produced? Please correct me if I am wrong, I am not not reading into your post but really wondering. I think it would make for an interesting discussion.

Allegra

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Terry,

I am curious by what you mean by "old blood lines" are you speaking about the age of the torts or the question of purity of the torts produced? Please correct me if I am wrong, I am not not reading into your post but really wondering. I think it would make for an interesting discussion.

Allegra

Purity.. of course Allegra!

Terry K

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I doubt 5% of the hatchlings I've produced have "Brazilian" blood in them. A couple more examples -

Again notice the 'typical' pattern on top of their heads -

Common plastron -

Answers please:

Are these considered "crosses"? Intergrades? Hybrids?

Any idea how long the Northerns can/will influence the upcoming hatchlings? [ even tho' they have not been in contact since July '08.. the 9+" Brazilian male has always been present ]

Terry K

 

[allegraf]

I don't think it is too hard to find pure bloodlines at least for the cherryheads. Yours are pretty but they are not pure. With those patterns, even when they get big, they should not be mistaken as cherryheads. I think it is a fascinating experience you are having with your cherry female still throwing mixes. I am curious how long it will take for the regular sperm to run its course.

 

[matt41gb]

So are tortoise hybrids sterile?