I can't wait to have healthcare reform so I can pay for this woman's medical care:

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chadk

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"Poor people, homeless people and drug addicts don't vote"
Where did you get that info???

ACORN....

Obama won the low income and minority vote by a wide margin. And guess what, that category has grown since Obama took office. Jobless rates are horrible and the massive 'stimulous' spending has not helped. Gov't is growing though...

As for charities that help, they are all over.

A big one in the Seattle are for one example is Children's Hospital.
Seattle Children’s provides healthcare for the special needs of children regardless of race, sex, creed, ethnicity or disability. Financial assistance for medically necessary services is based on family income and hospital resources and is provided to children under age 21 whose primary residence is in Washington, Alaska, Montana or Idaho.

That is just off the top of my head. I know there are many more.

I'm not saying that charity alone can solve the issues our system has. Clearly there are issues that need to be fixed.
 
M

Maggie Cummings

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RE: I can't wait to have healthcare reform so I can pay for this woman's medical ca

chadk said:
What is your electric bill like? Mine jumped up pretty good when I started adding all the heat lamps, heat pads, space heater, etc for my critters.

It's been averaging $300 to $350...
 

chadk

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Yikes. That is pretty high. How much of that goes for your pets I wonder? I'll have to look up my records over the last few years and see. 7 kids to care for is one thing (central heat) - adding all the animals and their extra heating requirements is another.
 

Stephanie Logan

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OK, let me re-phrase that.

Homeless people and drug addicts do not vote in large enough numbers to be "politically protected"--you know, like big corporations who fund campaigns, or the elderly, who DO vote and have a large enough bloc that politicians must heed their demands...

Poor people, homeless people and drug addicts are not politically powerful enough to steal billions of dollars in fraudulent welfare and medicaid payments and get away with it, not on the scale Terry is worried about.
 

motero

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Homeless people and drug addicts do not vote in large enough numbers to be "politically protected"--you know, like big corporations who fund campaigns, or the elderly, who DO vote and have a large enough bloc that politicians must heed their demands...

You need to do some more research. All the 3rd generation welfare types know who is buttering their bread, their only job is to vote for those who will give them more.
 

terryo

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Like I said before, I don't want to argue politics....I'm not looking to change anyone's opinion or anyone's political agenda.
I worked all my life so I could choose what doctor I want to go to. I don't want the government to choose ...ANYTHING for me.

Terry, do you really believe that all welfare recipients are corrupt liars and drug addicts?

Absolutely not....they are the victims.

"Poor people, homeless people and drug addicts are not politically powerful enough to steal billions of dollars in fraudulent welfare and medicaid payments and get away with it, not on the scale Terry is worried about."

There are millions of people out there involved with medicaid fraud. I am not talking about just poor people, homeless people or drug addicts....not at all. These are the people who might really need welfare. The doctors involved in medicaid ...most doctors ....are corrupt. Shockingly....the head of a large well known Psychiatric center is one of the most corrupt Doctors I know. The drug dealers ...most are in the system. There are many, many people who claim to have HIV, and are getting a free ride, with letters from Doctors . You cannot read about this on Internet sites. You have to be involved to see what's going on. There are many, many, people who own houses, have bank accounts, own cars...all on welfare. If you know how to work the system, and you know people IN the system...it is very easy. Good honest people, like you, could never understand things like this unless you were "inside" and saw it first hand. Yes, I am talking about millions and millions of dollars. You are a good person Stephanie....but, definitely not a street person. I am not an educated person....lucky I made it out of high school...also with a learning disability, but I have been involved with this for thirty years, and I know first hand how bad it is out there.
Take the ferry from Manhattan, and see all the men lying on the ground, drunk, just waiting for their next welfare check so they can do this all over again.
There are generations of welfare participants .....I know a family who are third generation welfare....they are all healthy, people who could get an education and do something with themselves. Just think if ..me...one person who knows all these people living like this....and I'm just one person...how many more are out there.
I also know a lot of people like me, who raised their children, worked VERY hard, and never took a cent from the government.
I want my son to come out of college with an incentive to live the American dream.....which is ...get an education...work hard and be someone....maybe even be wealthy.....why not! But now, why should these college kids work hard, get good grades, and come out of college, and if they make a load of money, give 60% to the Government and then not be able to choose what doctor they want to see, when they can afford good health care.

"If Obama-Care is so Good why Doesn't Congress have to use it too".

I can't be bothered to look up statistics, but someone sent this to me.
Interesting statistics

A recent "Investor's Business Daily" article provided very interesting statistics from a survey by the United Nations International Health Organization.

Percentage of men and women who survived a cancer five years after diagnosis:

U.S. 65%

England 46%

Canada 42%

Percentage of patients diagnosed with diabetes who received treatment within six months:

U.S. 93%

England 15%

Canada 43%

Percentage of seniors needing hip replacement who received it within six months:

U.S. 90%

England 15%

Canada 43%

Percentage referred to a medical specialist who see one within one month:

U.S. 77%

England 40%

Canada 43%

Number of MRI scanners (a prime diagnostic tool) per million people:

U.S. 71

England 14

Canada 18

Percentage of seniors (65+), with low income, who say they are in "excellent health":

U.S. 12%

England 2%

Canada 6%


I don't know about you, but I don't want "Universal Healthcare" comparable to England or Canada .


OK...lets get back to our torts and turts, and just clear our heads of all this serious stuff. My head hurts now.
 

Stephanie Logan

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Yes, we should not be providing care for illegal aliens. That is a whole other issue but it overlaps on healthcare, jobs, education, and overall economic prosperity. I support immediate deportation of all illegal aliens, but that is not financially or politically feasible. The concept of amnesty I utterly oppose, though I suppose if these folks paid a fine, got their paperwork in order and got in line behind the thousands of immigrants trying to gain legal citizenship through the proper channels, it would resolve the problem at minimal cost to everyone else. I do acknowledge, however, the conundrum that exists over illegals' healthcare. There was a section of the current healthcare bill (that has since been dropped) that would have allowed illegal immigrants to pay, with their own money, for an insurance policy on one of the exchanges the bill would create. Yes, I get that we should not grant any such "status" to illegals, but consider: right now the only way they can get medical care is to go to an emergency room, where it is ILLEGAL to refuse medical attention to anyone, so they get healthcare--the most expensive healthcare, that of course they cannot pay for. So, it would make economic sense to let them pay for insurance policies so they could get primary care that is much less expensive than emergency care. It would cost LESS, much LESS to do so, but it is not politically feasible to offer any avenue of healthcare to illegal aliens. So YES, I agree that we cannot do this because of the "message" it would send, but it would reduce significantly the costs that are diverted to all of us, and our taxpayer dollars, that we are paying already and will continue to pay till we get the immigration issue sorted.

And, Chad, I just want to point out that the charity care that hospitals currently provide does NOT cover all who need it, nor does it pay insurance premiums for kids like Christopher. If his family declared bankruptcy, lost their home and became homeless, they would qualify for Medicaid, but what kind of a choice is that? Would you do something ilke that if it was one of your kids who was no longer "insurable" due to a pre-existing condition? For every one of the shiftless, lazy drug addicts that rip off the system in New York, there is a hardworking upright American citizen who simply cannot make ends meet, and one serious illness or injury puts them on the brink of poverty due to their inability to pay medical bills.

I believe that America's low position on healtcare outcomes stems directly from the fact that we DO have great healthcare, but since only the wealthy can afford it, we get more and more people who DON'T get the primary care they need to prevent or treat serious illness, so we end up with a lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality because we DON'T have universal health care. You can bring up all your "exceptions to the rule" thinking you want, and all of the "I've got mine, why should I pay for anyone else's; they don't deserve it!" excuses, but you still haven't answered why every other first world country manages to provide healthcare to all their citizens, and you still haven't told me where we'll be in thirty years if we continue with our current, for-profit healthcare system. Our economy cannot withstand the spiralling costs, and as far as the federal spending is concerned, I'd rather invest now in the longterm health of our citizens than spend trillions on wars "against terrorism". Too bad we still haven't caught Osama bin Laden, and are now on the hook for all those costs of the war we never needed in Iraq, that wasn't paid for or even kept on the books. Bush and the Republicans ran up huge deficits borrowing for these, but now that Obama wants to borrow to provide healthcare to Americans, which will ensure that our country continues to prosper in the future, Republicans have the gall and the hypocrisy to call him a spendthrift? Please.

Remember the famous video clip of actor Craig T Nelson http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-june-3-2009/moment-of-zen---craig-t--nelson-on-glenn-beck

He's been "on food stamps and welfare, and nobody ever bailed him out!"
 

chadk

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RE: I can't wait to have healthcare reform so I can pay for this woman's medical ca

Stephanie Logan said:
I believe that America's low position on healtcare outcomes stems directly from the fact that we DO have great healthcare, but since only the wealthy can afford it, we get more and more people who DON'T get the primary care they need to prevent or treat serious illness, so we end up with a lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality because we DON'T have universal health care.
What about medicaid and medicare and other low income medical options?

"I've got mine, why should I pay for anyone else's; they don't deserve it!"
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said any such thing.


why every other first world country manages to provide healthcare to all their citizens,
At double to triple the tax rate we have. If the gov't is taking 60% of your wages, you are on the verge of slavery.

and you still haven't told me where we'll be in thirty years if we continue with our current, for-profit healthcare system.
Did you actually ask me that question? Must have missed it...
But what you missed is the fact that nobody has suggested our current system rocks and needs no changing. So this is really a red herring.


Our economy cannot withstand the spiralling costs,
Do you think our economy can continue the spiralling taxes on wages and business? Spiralling growth of gov't? The deficit has tripled in a year - can we withstand that?

and as far as the federal spending is concerned, I'd rather invest now in the longterm health of our citizens
Since you are talking about spending and investing - then you really need to look at the cost, savings, short term and long term... And with all the smoke and mirrors, they really don't want that info to become clear to any of us. To be an 'investment', we need to do more than spend a bunch of money we don't have and don't have a way to actually pay it back. That is not an investment, it is a temporary patch that will explode in our faces down the road when our entire system collapses. Yes, let's invest. But invest wisely. Not on some 4,000 page bill put together by special interests in back room deals....

than spend trillions on wars "against terrorism".
Red herring again. But we haven't had another 9/11 event, even though we KNOW they are trying... But still a red herring.

Bush and the Republicans ran up huge deficits borrowing for these,
Sorry, but Clinton, Kerry, Edwards, and so on all voted for the spending and sold the war to the public - this was not a repulican vs democrat thing...


but now that Obama wants to borrow to provide healthcare to Americans, which will ensure that our country continues to prosper in the future, Republicans have the gall and the hypocrisy to call him a spendthrift? Please.
Actually most conservatives I know hated the out of control spending over the Bush years. But Obama is putting that to shame. Again, another red herring.

"to ensure out country contines to prosper"??? How is more debt prosperous? Didn't we learn anything from the housing crisis?
 

Stephanie Logan

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Yes, you are right. I don't know anything. I have selfish motives for wanting every American citizen to have access to heatlh care.

It's a problem too big to fix, so we should do nothing.

Our national deficit it too high and the only way to lower it is to kill the healthcare bill, repeal all taxes, revoke Medicare and Medicaid, and elect Republicans to congress.

America has gone to hell in a handbasket since Obama was elected. I apologize for trying to see any side of the issues but yours.
 

chadk

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Stephanie - isn't this just a friendly debate? Please don't think I'm making this perosnal. Just having a dialogue and offering differing opinions. I do not question your motives and repect your knowlege in this issue and your passion and ability to present a good arguement.

Again, nobody says we should do nothing. Something needs to be done. That is hardly worth debating. Everyone I know agrees to that. And I don't hear anyone saying republicans are the answer either.

I applogize for frustrating you, that was not my intention. You know I just like to argue. Sometimes a little too much I guess. :(
 

chairman

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Sorry, forgot who said it, but someone rhetorically asked (I assume it was rhetorical) whether we thought it would be a good idea to just completely dump social welfare programs because of the (probably) small percentage of folks who abuse the system. I actually think this is a great idea... not because I want to see the programs go, but because I want to see the programs go local non-profit. If the government programs were to disappear I bet you'd see the abuses decrease significantly. Let's face it, the government may provide free childcare to "low income" people who drop off their kids in brand new navigators with all the bells and whistles, but a local church running a free daycare program sure as heck wouldn't. That same charity would probably also help out worthy causes that don't currently qualify for aid. And since half the country votes for those programs, and much of the other half should be religiously motivated to donate to charity (not implying the left aren't so inclined due to religion, just providing a reason for the right to donate), there ought to be plenty of funding that can be voluntarily funneled to those charities. Especially with the tax decreases that could occur once the social programs stop eating so much budget. And if the funding doesn't materialize... well, if people aren't willing to voluntarily pay for something, is it democratic to force them to?

As for the healthcare reform... they could easily pass a law requiring health insurance companies to cover people with pre-existing conditions without spending tax dollars... they could easily pass laws restricting what health insurance companies could charge without spending tax dollars... they could easily mandate what insurance companies have to pay for without spending any tax dollars... such legislative requirements may force the entire health care industry into the non-profit sector just to avoid bankruptcy, but I doubt the level of care for average Americans would be any worse than with the laws they're trying to make us pay billions for. (Note, enforcement of regulations would still cost tax dollars, just not as much as the alternative.)

I guess to sum it all up... the government shouldn't manage anything that the private sector (profit or non-profit) can reasonably manage with appropriate legislative restrictions.
 

terryo

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Most everything that the Government manages are corrupt, right down from the little person behind the desk making you fill out forms, to the very top.

"small percentage of folks who abuse the system" That is so sad and naive. It is NOT a small percentage, and I mostly agree with your post. The reason, IMHO, that it cannot be fixed is because the people in "higher office" look the other way, because they are ALL getting a kick-back. I don't have a clue what can be done, but the Government taking over everything in sight, is NOT the answetr.
 

spikethebest

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okay so this bill passed....

this is how it will directly affect me...

my insurance coverage will not decrease or increase
my taxes will increase
my employer's taxes will increase
i dont care about pre-existing conditions
i dont have any kids
i dont care about lifetime max

the only thing that might, remotely, possibly help me, is that medicare/medicad could pay for more medical devices that my employers sells, to a select few districts from democrats that sold their votes to get $400 million in special funds.

so basically I'm voting for Meg Whitman for Governor of California, and I hope that this Ex-CEO of Ebay and Hasbro can fix this mess that we are in.
 

Candy

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Me too Cory. I'm very disgusted with the democrats who sold their vote for this. Hopefully Adam Schiff will be voted out next time too as he also supported this bill. I don't think that I've met one person so far who supports this bill so it makes you wonder how it got passed to begin with.
 

spikethebest

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