I don't like this:( Do you??

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Neltharion

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I find the crossbreeding of dogs and the crossbreeding of tortoises to be something of an apples and oranges comparison. Different breeds of domesticated canine are the result of generations of breeding and line breeding through human intervention. Crossbreeding different breeds of dogs is simply tampering with the linebreeding already done by man. Dogs are nowhere near endangered.

Different species of tortoises, on the other hand, are in many cases endangered. Likely in many cases, species of tortoises will be extinct in the wild and the remaining specimens will exist only in zoos and private keepers. Although not ideal in a 'perfect world' scenario, captive specimens will be the last remnants of these species. Responsible keepers will ensure that these bloodlines remain pure.

Which gets back to Matt's original question, is the world all about money? For some people, yet it is.
 

Neal

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As a breeder I don't like to see this, but there are those who like this type of unusual thing.

I am sure the breeder takes excellent care of their animals and I'm sure there is more that motivates them than just the $.
 

Tom

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Neltharion said:
I find the crossbreeding of dogs and the crossbreeding of tortoises to be something of an apples and oranges comparison. Different breeds of domesticated canine are the result of generations of breeding and line breeding through human intervention. Crossbreeding different breeds of dogs is simply tampering with the linebreeding already done by man. Dogs are nowhere near endangered.

Different species of tortoises, on the other hand, are in many cases endangered. Likely in many cases, species of tortoises will be extinct in the wild and the remaining specimens will exist only in zoos and private keepers. Although not ideal in a 'perfect world' scenario, captive specimens will be the last remnants of these species. Responsible keepers will ensure that these bloodlines remain pure.

Which gets back to Matt's original question, is the world all about money? For some people, yet it is.

I agree. To phrase it in my own words. All dogs are the same species. All dogs are man made and highly manipulated for thousands of years. These two types of tortoises are totally different species.

... And before anyone comments that sulcatas and leopards are not endangered, they are. Not sure on the leopards, but sulcatas are already extinct in two countries within their range and probably more, but study is very dangerous and difficult as well as expensive, in some of those countries. In Senegal, they were down to only 40 left in the wild before some recent reintroductions. While we may have an abundance of sulcatas here, they really are highly endangered in their wild territory.
 

bikerchicspain

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I at this moment in time cannot see that much of a problem, rodent lovers, they have to put up with them being cross bred and tested in labs, trying to make a new species would make a very interesting subject, this will determine how the animal reacts differently to their ancestors, what sort of character they would have, the colours, etc... Years ago it was offensive and sickening for white people having a black partner, now no one cares. So why not experiment in a new species of tortoises, as long as they don't suffer...
 

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matt581 said:
yes ik they do. My mom wants a goldendoodle there 600+ even go up to 1800 range if not more. What im trying to say that poor tortoise is living alot longer than a dog will. Nothing on mixed dogs i love them.
Tell your mom there are goldendoodles in rescue that are homeless and would love to be adopted!! There is every kind of dog in rescue waiting for a home, from heinz 57 mutts to designer crossbreeds to purebreds.



Laura said:
I dont agree with it,, but is it any different then a labmix dog?
of course the price.. it amazes me what people will pay lots of many for..
designer dogs... $1200 for a Mutt? that was these are and some people like that sort of thing..
i love mutts.. but some cross breeding should be left alone.. like Ligers... lion tiger mixes...
Yes, it is different than a mixed dog. Dogs are purebreds because we messed with it and did that. If we left dogs alone in nature and they reproduced on their own we would end up with a 40 lb. nondescript brown dog with a curly tail and upright ears. And that would be the wild dog. We only have poodles, shih tzus, labs, goldens because we manipulated their breeding. Left on their own in the wild, a leopard tortoise mates with another leo and a sulcata mates with another sulcata.
 

Yvonne G

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A dog is a dog is a dog, or they're all canine lupis familiaris. All dogs are the same species, but tortoises are NOT all the same species.

A collie is a canine lupis familiaris.
A lab is a canine lupis familiaris.
A poodle is a canine lupis familiaris.

A leopard tortoise is a Geochelone pardalis.
A sulcata tortoise is a Centrochelys sulcata.
 

Angi

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Hmmm.....I have a few thoughts on this. Nothing that I am really sure on just thoughts going through my head.
#1 I think this would be different than breeding mixed dogs because dogs have already be breed down to a dimestic animal. You would not find Labs or Poodles in the wild unless they were ex pets.
#2 We do have a problem with these desinger mixes dogs that people no longer want and are now homeless. I love mutts, but they are not as popular now and not getting the big bucks like they were 5 or more years ago. Could this happen to torts also?
#3 The first off spring of a mix will get the better genes of each, but the second generation has less of a chance( I read this in a designer dog book)....so what could this do to torts? It would take a long time to find out concidering less is known about them.

I don't agree with the cross on torts. I would also like to know the answer to Lens question.
 

matt581

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Tom said:
Neltharion said:
I find the crossbreeding of dogs and the crossbreeding of tortoises to be something of an apples and oranges comparison. Different breeds of domesticated canine are the result of generations of breeding and line breeding through human intervention. Crossbreeding different breeds of dogs is simply tampering with the linebreeding already done by man. Dogs are nowhere near endangered.

Different species of tortoises, on the other hand, are in many cases endangered. Likely in many cases, species of tortoises will be extinct in the wild and the remaining specimens will exist only in zoos and private keepers. Although not ideal in a 'perfect world' scenario, captive specimens will be the last remnants of these species. Responsible keepers will ensure that these bloodlines remain pure.

Which gets back to Matt's original question, is the world all about money? For some people, yet it is.

I agree. To phrase it in my own words. All dogs are the same species. All dogs are man made and highly manipulated for thousands of years. These two types of tortoises are totally different species.

... And before anyone comments that sulcatas and leopards are not endangered, they are. Not sure on the leopards, but sulcatas are already extinct in two countries within their range and probably more, but study is very dangerous and difficult as well as expensive, in some of those countries. In Senegal, they were down to only 40 left in the wild before some recent reintroductions. While we may have an abundance of sulcatas here, they really are highly endangered in their wild territory.


This is not about the leopard tor sulcata's breeding together but Tom in the wild how many leopards do you think there are now both kinds? and Sulcata's now? are family has asked this ? alot lol

thanks
 

Tom

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I have no idea on the leopards. On the sulcatas, I only know what my friend from Senegal has told me. He knows they are extinct in at least two countries and he suspects a few more, but can't safely get in there to survey. In his country they were down to forty, but through an enormous effort he has now done several reintroductions. I can't remember the exact number, but I think he has released several dozen subadults since 2006. He as actually seen hatchlings now, so things seem promising in his protected park area.
 

Terry Allan Hall

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Tom said:
I have no idea on the leopards. On the sulcatas, I only know what my friend from Senegal has told me. He knows they are extinct in at least two countries and he suspects a few more, but can't safely get in there to survey. In his country they were down to forty, but through an enormous effort he has now done several reintroductions. I can't remember the exact number, but I think he has released several dozen subadults since 2006. He as actually seen hatchlings now, so things seem promising in his protected park area.

Pity that some of the big sulcatas, in rescues here in the US of A, aren't being released (after making sure they're in good health, of course) to help w/ the repopulating in those areas... :tort:
 

EricIvins

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Terry Allan Hall said:
Len said:
Are the mix breeds able to reproduce or are they mules?

I'd assume that they're ordinarily not viable, like a male ***/female horse mule, but on very rare occasions female mules have given birth to viable offspring (also, in 2003, researchers at University of Idaho and Utah State University produced the first mule clone)...and there has been documented tigon females (tiger/lion hybrid) reproducing.

So, who knows if a female leo/sulcata hybrid occasionally can, as well. They haven't been around long enough to know beyond a doubt.

You will find that most Reptile\Amphibian Hybrids are very Fertile.......Mules are not a good example of Hybrid viability, and comparing them to a Tortoise is like comparing a lawn mower to a Ferrari........

I'd also like to point out the Hypocrisy that this thread does bring up -

How many mixed Sulcatas and Leopards do we have in captivity right now? There isn't just one type of Sulcata, or one Leopard type........

They all differ in their various locales, and some are going to be brought up to species status in the next few years......

So? We can complain left and right about these Hybrids, but not about the many that have been produced for years under the guise of "Pure" animals? Really?
 

Tom

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Oh I complain about those too, and I'm currently raising a bunch of single locale leopards and hope to start my single locale sulcata herd soon...
 

Terry Allan Hall

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EricIvins said:
Terry Allan Hall said:
Len said:
Are the mix breeds able to reproduce or are they mules?

I'd assume that they're ordinarily not viable, like a male ***/female horse mule, but on very rare occasions female mules have given birth to viable offspring (also, in 2003, researchers at University of Idaho and Utah State University produced the first mule clone)...and there has been documented tigon females (tiger/lion hybrid) reproducing.

So, who knows if a female leo/sulcata hybrid occasionally can, as well. They haven't been around long enough to know beyond a doubt.

You will find that most Reptile\Amphibian Hybrids are very Fertile.......Mules are not a good example of Hybrid viability, and comparing them to a Tortoise is like comparing a lawn mower to a Ferrari........




My point, that you glossed over, is that, in the case of sulcata/leopard Xs, we don't know if they'll be fertile or not...because we don't.

Period.

Let's resume that particular argument is a decade or so, OK? :rolleyes:
 

Neltharion

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EricIvins said:
I'd also like to point out the Hypocrisy that this thread does bring up -

How many mixed Sulcatas and Leopards do we have in captivity right now? There isn't just one type of Sulcata, or one Leopard type........

They all differ in their various locales, and some are going to be brought up to species status in the next few years......

So? We can complain left and right about these Hybrids, but not about the many that have been produced for years under the guise of "Pure" animals? Really?

Just because no one brought up crossbreeding at the subspecies level, that doesn't make anyone a hypocrite. Just an example, I don't agree with the cross breeding of pardalis pardalis and pardalis babcocki. I'm sure others don't either, but this thread originated with interspecies breeding. The absence of a certain objection does not necessarily mean that the objection does not exist. There is no hypocrisy in that.
 

matt581

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Tom said:
I have no idea on the leopards. On the sulcatas, I only know what my friend from Senegal has told me. He knows they are extinct in at least two countries and he suspects a few more, but can't safely get in there to survey. In his country they were down to forty, but through an enormous effort he has now done several reintroductions. I can't remember the exact number, but I think he has released several dozen subadults since 2006. He as actually seen hatchlings now, so things seem promising in his protected park area.



Thats great what do ppl do to the tortoises? Is that why there is a few out there or was. Yes 1s that are in places that need new homes let them in the wild!!
 

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I sense more regulations being drafted. :(
 

Tom

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It would be nice to just go ahead and release our extra ones back into the wild, but it is just not prudent or practical.

1. There are at least three different "types" in the wild. No one is calling them subspecies yet, but there are definite geographical variations. The vast majority of the ones over here are simply mutts. As they were imported from various areas within their range, they were all lumped together over here. We love them. Work great for us as pets, but not suitable for release back into the wild. DNA testing might reveal some true bloodlines still lingering here in the states, but that seems unlikely to ever happen.

2. There is a reason they are extinct or nearly extinct in the wild. This is a very complex, multi-facted problem and there is no simple solution to it. Unless what drove them to this point is identified and eliminated, releasing more would be pointless.

3. Who knows what creepy crawlies they have been exposed to and are carrying around over here. All the exposure to other tortoises and other animals could have them carrying ticking time bombs that we don't even know about yet. Look at the mycoplasma with the CA desert tortoises.

4. It is VERY expensive, time consuming and logistically difficult to re-release animals into the wild. Many many hoops must be jumped through first to get the myriad of necessary tests and approvals done.
 

Terry Allan Hall

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Tom said:
It would be nice to just go ahead and release our extra ones back into the wild, but it is just not prudent or practical.

1. There are at least three different "types" in the wild. No one is calling them subspecies yet, but there are definite geographical variations. The vast majority of the ones over here are simply mutts. As they were imported from various areas within their range, they were all lumped together over here. We love them. Work great for us as pets, but not suitable for release back into the wild. DNA testing might reveal some true bloodlines still lingering here in the states, but that seems unlikely to ever happen.

2. There is a reason they are extinct or nearly extinct in the wild. This is a very complex, multi-facted problem and there is no simple solution to it. Unless what drove them to this point is identified and eliminated, releasing more would be pointless.

3. Who knows what creepy crawlies they have been exposed to and are carrying around over here. All the exposure to other tortoises and other animals could have them carrying ticking time bombs that we don't even know about yet. Look at the mycoplasma with the CA desert tortoises.

4. It is VERY expensive, time consuming and logistically difficult to re-release animals into the wild. Many many hoops must be jumped through first to get the myriad of necessary tests and approvals done.

Yeah, sad, ain't it?
 
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