I would like your opinions

[Az tortoise compound]

Can a person that breeds tortoises to sell also be involved in a rescue program? Or are they mutually exclusive?

 

[Kristina]

I do both. I have several rescues in my breeding groups, some that I adopted, others that were surrendered to me directly.

I have quite a few reptiles surrendered to me each year, plus I am contacted by the county whenever someone tries to surrender a reptile to them - they don't take them. They come to me.

I think that as long as you are responsible about it, it isn't a problem. I am not 501(3)c, and I don't receive any outside funding. If I choose to make a little money for the care and feeding of the animals that I bring in, I think that is my business and no one else has any right to say anything about it.

As far as a funded 501(3)c not for profit - well, they probably shouldn't. That is a whole other ballpark.

 

[Missy]

I think you can do both. I do not ever plan to breed but if I were going to I would like to think I could still rescue and re-home unwanted torts and breed too. I think where the problem comes in is when a certain breed is over populated and breeders continue to breed and sell hatchlings cheap just to get rid of them. Like any other animal there are some people that should not breed anything. I no there are good breeders out there that breed healthy hatchlings and make sure they get good homes and the right care. Lets face it, without breeders a lot of us would not ever get a chance to have our beloved torts.

 

[Yvonne G]

I think it would be unethical for a person who takes in a free rescued tortoise to turn around and sell the tortoise for $$$. But to put a rescued tortoise into a breeding program then sell the babies, I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[motero]

Should Rescues breed....No!
Can a breeder help rescue.....Yes!

 

[onarock]

Should Rescues breed....No!
Can a breeder help rescue.....Yes!

Should Rescues breed....No!
Is that animal shelter Cat and Dog theory?

 

[terryo]

OK Here's my 2 cents. You are a breeder who sells for profit. Am I right about this? If not, I apologize. You want to rescue a large species to breed for profit. If you go to a rescue that comes from the climate that you do, I'm sure they would be more understanding. For example....here in New York, there is a rescue and most all the Sulcata's that come in are from people who live in New York, and most had no idea how to care for such a large animal. They most likely bought them on line for $40....cheap enough, and cute as a button. Later on they bring them to this rescue all pyramiding, in very poor health, and the rescue becomes over run with them. Sometimes they can't even take any more in because they isn't enough room to care for them. Now a breeder come's alone and wants one. Should the rescue hand over a Sulcata....for example.....to breed more? The people in the rescue's here feel very strongly about breeding Sulcata. Where you live, in a warm climate, maybe your rescue's think differently, but not here in New York.
I don't know if I'm explaining myself right, so I hope you understand.
So when you say should a breeder be involved in a rescue......it isn't that cut and dry.

 

[egyptiandan]

I don't see anything wrong with breeding a rescued tortoise. Now should a place that purports themselves to be a "rescue" and takes money from people breed tortoises, probably not.
There is a difference in rescuing tortoises and being a "rescue". If you don't take money (like Kristina) you rescue tortoises. If you take money than you are "a rescue".

Danny

 

[terryo]

Through the years, I've taken in many water turtles, box turtles, and even fostered some until they could find a permanent home for them. No one here as ever asked me for any money. I have contributed to their fund raisers many times, but never "paid" for an animal from a rescue here in NY.
I do know of one that charges a lot for their tortoises, and box turtles. He then uses the money to care for his "rescue" pit bulls. I have never taken any animals from him though.

 

[Laura]

If you are going to breed.. Especially a tort like Sulcatas.. then YES you should also do rescue.. Help those you are putting out there to begin with.. If you breed.. you need to do so Responsibly and not for greed.
I Dont think you should breed Rescues. There are some cases that it might be ok..

 

[Brutha]

I wouldn't correlate the two. If you're willing and able to properly rescue, then you should rescue. If you're a responsible breeder and wish to properly breed, then you should breed. If you happen to fulfill both descriptions, then do both. The important part is that you do so properly.

 

[Sweetness_bug]

I fell that yes you should be able to do both as long as your not greedy, or out to make a fortune

 

[Kristina]

I Dont think you should breed Rescues. There are some cases that it might be ok..

Okay, for instance, I have Home's Hingebacks. Three of them are rescues. Home's are heavily imported from Africa, undergo terrible import conditions, and who knows when they will be extinct because there is absolutely no data concerning the amount of them left in the wild.

The way to get a handle on wild collection is to start captive breeding. My first trio, being rescues, should then never get the chance to pass on their genes and help stop wild collection, just because they were rescues?

I don't mean to sound argumentative if it comes off that way, I just want your serious opinion on that particular scenario. Where and how do you draw the line on what is okay to breed and what is not?

Opinions, anyone?

 

[Az tortoise compound]

Terryo and anyone else interested,

Yes we breed tortoises and try to sell them for profit. We also take in unwanted turtles and tortoises. We usually keep them as pets and don't include them in breeding groups. Sometimes, we will re-home the rescued animals to the right owner. We usually give them to the new owner free. Sometimes I come across an animal that needs rescue right away and the current owner will only part with the animal for cash. Once it is nursed back to health (or whatever it needs depending on situation) I might ask to recoup some of my money. I can't keep them all.

In this case, I saw there were Sulcatas at a rescue that needed help. I am in the position to provide them a great home and more attention than they have ever received in the past. My initial inquiry was shot down quickly in a very rude manner (my opinion). I was trying to keep this very generalized.

I believe we can be breeders, rescuers and educators at the same time.
Everything we do throughout our day is for the health and well being of our animals.
Every customer I have spoke with since I found this forum has been asked by us to come here in order to learn and share.
I have seen quite a few join.
The rescued animals are never sold for profit.


I posted this thread just to get an idea of the general public's opinion in regards to my question.

I take no offense to any answer. We are all entitled to our opinions.
If anyone ever has a question or would like to discuss tortoise related matters I encourage the phone calls or emails.

 

[egyptiandan]

Now if we are talking getting tortoises from a rescue, than thats a whole 'nother kettle of fish. I would say most rescues have the policy of not breeding any of the animals "adopted" from them, no matter what species it is. Thats one reason I don't deal with rescues. I've seen the rules of some orginizations and they say that if they catch you breeding from an animal you adopted, they will take the animal back and even the offspring. Some places make it so hard to adopt that they are flooded with highly adoptable species (Russians and Box turtles) and you'd think that they get a ton of them. When it's just that they never let any go.
So right when you tell a rescue your a breeder, thats the kiss of death for getting any animals from them.
Enough about rescues as I could go on forever

Danny

 

[Kristina]

While that is true Danny, there are some that are less stringent. The rescue that my first trio of Hingebacks came from was well aware that I was going to breed them, and was all for it. My three big Redfoots did not come from a "rescue" per se, but the person that I adopted them from certainly DID rescue them, and also knew that they would eventually be bred, and wants a hatchling

I have a no breeding clause in my contract, which is posted on my website. I also post animals with adoption fees. The kicker is that once I get to know the person adopting, one of two things happens. I either give you the animal gratis, or you get turned down all together. The fees and clauses help to weed out the less than savory characters

I also want to note that ANY animal that has ever left my care is welcome back, at any time, for ANY reason. I will never turn down someone looking for help or a place for their pet to go. If I for any reason can't take it, I will find an appropriate someone that can. Plain and simple.

 

[Balboa]

Generally speaking I've always been opposed to the no-breeding mentality of rescues. I get it with cats and dogs. There are too many, because of far too many irresponsible owners, and they are capable of living and surviving ferally vitually anywhere. That absolutely EVERY animal that passes through their doors MUST be neutered/spayed is a shame. It causes a downward spiral on the collective gene pool of the Domestic Canine and Cat.

With "exotics" frankly its downright stupid (IMHO). Their gene pool is more like a gene droplet. What fault is it of the tortoise that it should never get to fulfill its "natural destiny"? It didn't pick its owner. If, thanks to a rescue it finds its way into a home where it receives proper care, what harm is there in it making babies versus one obtained elsewhere? Are the rescues saying nobody should own torts period? Convenient how they still get to own torts since they're "rescuing" them. Hmmm that all sounds a little harsh, but I think you get my drift, we're not likely to have a feral/stray tortoise problem in the United States anytime soon.

I do HOWEVER kinda get it with Sulcatas. Awesome torts, great pets, but in all reality, how many people are REALLY able to meet the long term needs of these animals that are available so cheaply? I know I can't, so I won't be getting one. It really ticked me off at the reptile expo I recently attended. Nice looking little Hermanns, a doable tort for a lot of people, $150. Next to him a Sulcata , $50. Both the same size now, both very cute. Which one is more likely to go home with little johnny? Unless we are counting on the 90+ % that die young from neglect to continue doing so, should probably back off on the production and get the price where it should be, eh?

Sooo to the topic. Yes, Breeders should Rescue, especially Sulcatas, they should take back every one that no longer has a home

 

[Az tortoise compound]

While that is true Danny, there are some that are less stringent. The rescue that my first trio of Hingebacks came from was well aware that I was going to breed them, and was all for it. My three big Redfoots did not come from a "rescue" per se, but the person that I adopted them from certainly DID rescue them, and also knew that they would eventually be bred, and wants a hatchling

I have a no breeding clause in my contract, which is posted on my website. I also post animals with adoption fees. The kicker is that once I get to know the person adopting, one of two things happens. I either give you the animal gratis, or you get turned down all together. The fees and clauses help to weed out the less than savory characters

I also want to note that ANY animal that has ever left my care is welcome back, at any time, for ANY reason. I will never turn down someone looking for help or a place for their pet to go. If I for any reason can't take it, I will find an appropriate someone that can. Plain and simple.

It sounds like we do things similarly. I do not have fees and clauses as we don't advertise rescues. They go to people we know.

It is printed on our care sheets that we will always take a tortoise back at any time.

I am glad to know most of us share the same opinion. I won't knock a rescue because unfortunately they are needed in some areas.

Good luck to the three little Sulcatas I am not allowed to have. I hope they find good homes.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I think that if you 'rescued' a tortoise you should not sell him for money. Adopt him to a tortoise home for free. Do you want to breed him first? Then do it, but if you rescued the tort and didn't pay for him you shouldn't ask money to place him in a home. I am a very small rescue. I take in turtles and tortoises, rehab them and adopt them out. I don't do very many now. For me the only money involved comes out of my pocket. I don't breed at all.

 

[Az tortoise compound]

Maggie,
I completely agree. I would never sell a tortoise that I rescued. I would have no problem signing a contract stating so, if I was given the opportunity. I just disagree with the "if you breed you are evil and greedy" mentality of some people.
but
It takes all kinds.......