Infa red heat bulb?

[Tidgy's Dad]

The black are in the blue spectrum. She's simply saying use the reptile heat lights and not the party lights..... not saying don't use black.

No. She says :
Real black lights are of two kinds; BLB flourescents "party lights" or "poster lights" that cause eye damage and secondly; BL which are safe for providing UVA and UVB safely in the day but are unnecessary as you need bright white light to promote basking. She says never use UV at all at night.
There are a third type , an incandescent black ''poster' light used for Halloween.
Then a fourth, "black phosphor" that are not dark enough.
The fifth type of night light is the nocturnal reptile incandescent light in red, blue, or green.
Blue :

Call it black if you like, but i wouldn't use one, myself. I still feel it's better to have natural darkness, for me just a little light through the window.
If you do want blue light, that's perfectly fine.

 

[Markw84]

It gets so confusing...

A CHE emits infrared light. Just the portion above visible red yet below microwave.

A red heat bulb emits visible red light as well as infrared heat

So when someone says the have an infrared bulb that could mean either

A black bulb is emitting UV light. Some actually in the wavelength humans can see as purple and blue. It is quite a bit in the high end of UVA which we know tortoises are very capable of seeing. That black light that looks like moonlight to you, looks like a bright light to a tortoise and a very contrast bright light that you and I have never experienced

Circadian rhythms have been shown to mostly be affected by blue light in the plant world. Along with other factors such as duration and strength. We don't know what that means to tortoises who see well below the blue wavelengths and into the UVA spectrum.

Red light works for some animals ( many are color blind) to allow us to see them while they think it is dark, but that doesn't apply to many other animals with better color vision. And tortoises have amongst the best of color vision - way better than humans

So what we see as dark, or red , or blue is very different than what they see. Since their vision is also so good in the UVA range that we cannot even see, a black or blue light looks bright to them. Not black or blue.

There is not total darkness normally in the night of animals. But there is a dramatically reduced intensity across the entire spectrum of light. That is what I choose to emulate. By creating "darkness" by shifting the spectrum of light we offer so that it looks darker to us does not mean it looks darker to a tortoise. It probably looks entirely foreign

Do we KNOW what works best? Hard to say because a tortoise can also learn to sleep with lights on 24 hrs a day. But I don't think that's best

Just my 2 cents worth!!

 

[lisa127]

No. She says :
Real black lights are of two kinds; BLB flourescents "party lights" or "poster lights" that cause eye damage and secondly; BL which are safe for providing UVA and UVB safely in the day but are unnecessary as you need bright white light to promote basking. She says never use UV at all at night.
There are a third type , an incandescent black ''poster' light used for Halloween.
Then a fourth, "black phosphor" that are not dark enough.
The fifth type of night light is the nocturnal reptile incandescent light in red, blue, or green.
Blue :

Call it black if you like, but i wouldn't use one, myself. I still feel it's better to have natural darkness, for me just a little light through the window.
If you do want blue light, that's perfectly fine.

I understand you don't like to use them. I do like to use them and have for decades. I once had to use a red in an emergency situation for a box turtle. The boxie kept staring at the red light and kept alert with it on during the night. Next day I was able to go get one of the moonlight ones I normally use. He never showed that behavior with the moonlight one. After two decades of using them, I personally don't buy the harmful claim.

 

[Tom]

I've tried the red, blue, black and CHE bulbs over many reptiles and over a span of many years.

My observations: It was all a mixed bag. I've found the best solution, all things considered, is to have it dark at night, with no colored lights of any kind, and brightly lit with "full spectrum" white light that simulates daylight in the day time. I frequently saw behavioral problems with any and all of the colored bulbs and they burn out early and often and almost always at the worst possible, least convenient times. I've seen zero behavioral problems with the dark at night and white light during the day routine, and I have CHE's that have been running for decades that still work as perfectly as they did the day I bought them. My first CHE was a Pearlco purchased in 1991. It has been running continuously in a wide variety of applications over many species of reptiles in many types of enclosure since that time.

 

[lisa127]

I've tried the red, blue, black and CHE bulbs over many reptiles and over a span of many years.

My observations: It was all a mixed bag. I've found the best solution, all things considered, is to have it dark at night, with no colored lights of any kind, and brightly lit with "full spectrum" white light that simulates daylight in the day time. I frequently saw behavioral problems with any and all of the colored bulbs and they burn out early and often and almost always at the worst possible, least convenient times. I've seen zero behavioral problems with the dark at night and white light during the day routine, and I have CHE's that have been running for decades that still work as perfectly as they did the day I bought them. My first CHE was a Pearlco purchased in 1991. It has been running continuously in a wide variety of applications over many species of reptiles in many types of enclosure since that time.

Longevity I think is the biggest plus to them. My incandescent actually do last a long time but obviously not years.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

I've always, for multiple decades, and multiple types of reptiles, used CHE's.
Often I've suggested that the person thinking tortoises don't see red to paint their toenails red and walk barefoot in your tortoise pen. As you dance to keep your toe attached to your foot, maybe you'll agree that they see red just fine, and often as a food item.
As said earlier, this is simply my 2¢ and I'm happy with CHE's. They don't burnout, it's easy to determine the wattage you need for your enclosure, and heckfire they're even pretty cheap.
GO FALCONS !

 

[lisa127]

I've always, for multiple decades, and multiple types of reptiles, used CHE's.
Often I've suggested that the person thinking tortoises don't see red to paint their toenails red and walk barefoot in your tortoise pen. As you dance to keep your toe attached to your foot, maybe you'll agree that they see red just fine, and often as a food item.
As said earlier, this is simply my 2¢ and I'm happy with CHE's. They don't burnout, it's easy to determine the wattage you need for your enclosure, and heckfire they're even pretty cheap.
GO FALCONS !

I do not think any of us on this thread are in favor of red bulbs.

 

[Tom]

Longevity I think is the biggest plus to them. My incandescent actually do last a long time but obviously not years.

If you like the colored bulbs and they are working for your situation, then I see no reason to switch. You know what you are doing and you know what to watch out for. You have a 20 year baseline to compare any aberrant behavior to, as well, and I think that gives you insight that others will not have.

Still, for the purposes of this forum, and for helping out new people, I think dark at night and bright during the day (maybe not as bright for some of the forest species, but still white light even if it is dimmer than for a suclata or russian…) is the best and least problematic strategy for us to be recommending to newer tortoise keepers. I "feel" kind of like that is what Adam is getting at too. You like your bulbs and Yvonne likes her assortment of black and infrared bulbs, but you two are expert keepers with tons of experience and decades of trial and error and observation to go on. For a new person without all that tortoise keeping history, I think a CHE on a thermostat and white light during the day is the best recommendation.

 

[lisa127]

If you like the colored bulbs and they are working for your situation, then I see no reason to switch. You know what you are doing and you know what to watch out for. You have a 20 year baseline to compare any aberrant behavior to, as well, and I think that gives you insight that others will not have.

Still, for the purposes of this forum, and for helping out new people, I think dark at night and bright during the day (maybe not as bright for some of the forest species, but still white light even if it is dimmer than for a suclata or russian…) is the best and least problematic strategy for us to be recommending to newer tortoise keepers. I "feel" kind of like that is what Adam is getting at too. You like your bulbs and Yvonne likes her assortment of black and infrared bulbs, but you two are expert keepers with tons of experience and decades of trial and error and observation to go on. For a new person without all that tortoise keeping history, I think a CHE on a thermostat and white light during the day is the best recommendation.

That may be true. I've never kept anything but forest species so I don't tend to worry about bright during the day. Just a single uvb flourescent in each enclosure is the only illumination. I'm sure if I had kept other types over the years I'd have different ways of doings things (both illumination and heating) and of thinking.

 

[Tom]

That may be true. I've never kept anything but forest species so I don't tend to worry about bright during the day. Just a single uvb flourescent in each enclosure is the only illumination. I'm sure if I had kept other types over the years I'd have different ways of doings things (both illumination and heating) and of thinking.

This is a conversation/argument that I frequently have with experienced keepers. Over the years they develop a knowledge base filled with trial and error and personal preferences. These things color what we say to people and what we recommend. I'm guilty of it too.

But I try to base recommendations on what will work best for the person I'm addressing. I would answer a question that you asked differently than a question from a first time owner with a new baby sulcata. Give this fact, I don't think colored bulbs of any kind are the best recommendation for a new keeper, given all the confusion, misleading marketing of the bulbs, mixed results with the bulbs, and the propensity of these incandescent bulbs to burn out early and often. I would not tell someone of your experience level and accomplishment that you are wrong and should change everything, but I will tell a new keeper that colored bulbs are not the best way to go and should be avoided.

 

[Kaska]

The black are in the blue spectrum. She's simply saying use the reptile heat lights and not the party lights..... not saying don't use black.

So I'm getting my redfoot tomorrow and have a red lite for nite. I also saw infared heat lights, black lights and CHE. So if I understand no red of any kind? The blacklight I don't think emitted heat. I'd like some lite at night so how would a CHE and blacklight be?

 

[JoesMum]

So I'm getting my redfoot tomorrow and have a red lite for nite. I also saw infared heat lights, black lights and CHE. So if I understand no red of any kind? The blacklight I don't think emitted heat. I'd like some lite at night so how would a CHE and blacklight be?

This isn't about you. This is about your tortoise. It's an animal with care needs and not an ornament for display.

Your tortoise needs complete darkness at night. A ceramic heat emitter used with a thermostat provides the stable ambient temperature required day and night by a redfoot.

No basking lamp for this species. It also needs a 5.0 tube UVB to provide daytime light. That's all.

 

[Lyn W]

This is a conversation/argument that I frequently have with experienced keepers. Over the years they develop a knowledge base filled with trial and error and personal preferences. These things color what we say to people and what we recommend. I'm guilty of it too.

But I try to base recommendations on what will work best for the person I'm addressing. I would answer a question that you asked differently than a question from a first time owner with a new baby sulcata. Give this fact, I don't think colored bulbs of any kind are the best recommendation for a new keeper, given all the confusion, misleading marketing of the bulbs, mixed results with the bulbs, and the propensity of these incandescent bulbs to burn out early and often. I would not tell someone of your experience level and accomplishment that you are wrong and should change everything, but I will tell a new keeper that colored bulbs are not the best way to go and should be avoided.

This is very true Tom - when I first had Lola I was clueless so joined the forum.
The choice of lighting and heating is very confusing for someone like me with no experience, so as long as it was safe for my tort I went with the options recommended by long term keepers like yourself and although not necessarily the cheapest way, it is the simplest.
i.e
dark and warm at night = CHE (on a thermostat)
light, warmth and uvb by day = MVB (and because its a large space - with additional daylight basking bulb when necessary)
- and I have avoided the risk of all coiled and cfl type bulbs - better safe than sorry!
Interesting discussion though, thanks everyone.

 

[Ria]

I'm just the opposite of Wellington. I use the red light at night for warmth. Most of my tortoise sheds have a 250 watt (way too big for your table) bulb on a 12 hour timer at night, and during the day they can come and go outside if they want to, plus the shed is still heated in winter during the day. Yes, the red color seems to make some tortoises want to taste anything and everything in the habitat, but here at my place, all my tortoises are asleep when the red light comes on. I don't use it during the day.

So my advice, and you can take it or leave it, is for night heat, either buy a $3 black light:

View attachment 198988
(this would be the same as moonlight)

. . . or a $25 Ceramic Heat Emitter:

View attachment 198989

. . . or an 8 or 9 dollar infra red bulb:

I would not hesitate to use any of the above heat providers. You can always discontinue the use if it causes the tortoise to be awake at night and eat his substrate.

All this info is amazing! Thank you so much! He seems to be so much more active after having this on! My bulb is 100w when I turned the bulb off he went straight to his bed, do you think the uvb light is too high for him? I don't want to have it too low as to damage his eyes, I feel like I am not getting the right information from the pet shop where I got my little man, it's disheartening because I feel if your not sure don't give the info! ☹️

 

[lisa127]

So I'm getting my redfoot tomorrow and have a red lite for nite. I also saw infared heat lights, black lights and CHE. So if I understand no red of any kind? The blacklight I don't think emitted heat. I'd like some lite at night so how would a CHE and blacklight be?

Moonlight reptile bulbs do give heat. They do not light up the enclosure though for you to be able to view your animal. That shouldn't be the goal anyway.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

It gets so confusing...

A CHE emits infrared light. Just the portion above visible red yet below microwave.

A red heat bulb emits visible red light as well as infrared heat

So when someone says the have an infrared bulb that could mean either

A black bulb is emitting UV light. Some actually in the wavelength humans can see as purple and blue. It is quite a bit in the high end of UVA which we know tortoises are very capable of seeing. That black light that looks like moonlight to you, looks like a bright light to a tortoise and a very contrast bright light that you and I have never experienced

Circadian rhythms have been shown to mostly be affected by blue light in the plant world. Along with other factors such as duration and strength. We don't know what that means to tortoises who see well below the blue wavelengths and into the UVA spectrum.

Red light works for some animals ( many are color blind) to allow us to see them while they think it is dark, but that doesn't apply to many other animals with better color vision. And tortoises have amongst the best of color vision - way better than humans

So what we see as dark, or red , or blue is very different than what they see. Since their vision is also so good in the UVA range that we cannot even see, a black or blue light looks bright to them. Not black or blue.

There is not total darkness normally in the night of animals. But there is a dramatically reduced intensity across the entire spectrum of light. That is what I choose to emulate. By creating "darkness" by shifting the spectrum of light we offer so that it looks darker to us does not mean it looks darker to a tortoise. It probably looks entirely foreign

Do we KNOW what works best? Hard to say because a tortoise can also learn to sleep with lights on 24 hrs a day. But I don't think that's best

Just my 2 cents worth!!

Confusing, indeed.
I think i'm going to go with an HD colour photograph of the sun superglued to the wall of the enclosure.

 

[mark1]

light and circadian rhythm have been studied in animals through the production of melatonin ..... blue light blocks the production of melatonin red light does not , at least that's what I remember .....the health benefits of near ir light has been extensively studied , the mechanism for some of these health benefits is known ..... color blind does not mean not able to see color ..... some nocturtnal , maybe all , can see color in total darkness ........... keeping lights on an animal for 24/7 will create a stressed sick animal ...... they did a test at the Cleveland zoo to test circadian rhythm in nocturnal animals , they had to stop the portion of the experiment where the blue light was used at night as they began to get stressed sick animals ............ I've kept turtles and tortoises longer than these che's have been available , or at least before I ever seen them , brooder lamps have always been available . I use che's now , they last a long time and end up being way cheaper than ir bulbs ....... I use the ir bulbs on some p.manni that come in for the winter , I use it inside and out , when they're inside the red light is on 24/7..... a few of them have been here as long as I have lived here , 25yrs , they are prolific breeders , and never get sick ..........

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

No animal can 'see' in total darkness, at least some light is necessary.
More animals than suspected can see some colours at night, usually in the blue/violet end of the spectrum, but many seemingly cannot see colour at all.
This is nice: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141128-these-animals-see-colour-at-night

 

[Lyn W]

All this info is amazing! Thank you so much! He seems to be so much more active after having this on! My bulb is 100w when I turned the bulb off he went straight to his bed, do you think the uvb light is too high for him? I don't want to have it too low as to damage his eyes, I feel like I am not getting the right information from the pet shop where I got my little man, it's disheartening because I feel if your not sure don't give the info! ☹️

Sadly few pet stores give good advice. Their job is to make profit and sell their stock.
I quickly learned to always check here before spending my hard earned cash on equipment that maybe unsuitable or even unsafe.
You won't go far wrong if you follow advice here. There will be differences of opinion but you have to weigh up what you think is best for your circumstances and of course your torts health and safety.

 

[Tom]

...I feel like I am not getting the right information from the pet shop where I got my little man, it's disheartening because I feel if your not sure don't give the info! ☹️

Very few pet stores give good tortoise advice. In fact, if one exists somewhere in the country, I've never found it or heard of it.