Is Hibernation Absolutely Required?

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bellyboo

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I know I don't have to worry about this right now as my little guy is just a hatchling, but is it absolutely required that you hibernate your Hermann? This is mainly a curiosity question. For now, I plan to fully educate myself on the process and let my tort do as nature intended when the time comes.

Thanks! :D






Edited to fix typos. D'oh.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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I don't hibernate any of my animals. Too each his own. Just do what you feel like. I see too much death in hibernation so I don't want that happening to any of my animals...Do as you wish...no rules here!:tort::tort::):tort::)
 

Tim/Robin

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No it is not required. I have had great success breeding Dalmatian Hermanns without hibernating them at all. No fertility issues here!
 

Laura

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reminds me... tomorrow i go poke my deserts foot to make sure it moves....
I cant find my russian... :-/,,,,, im hoping he is deeper then i looked..
ugh
 

bellyboo

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Wow...really? I just assumed since they do it in nature it should be done in captivity. That's interesting! I definitely need to do a lot more reading into it. I knew when I bought my Hermy that they hibernate, but I don't feel completely comfortable with my knowledge on the subject. And like I said, I have time. Mine is just 15 weeks old. :)

Thank you so much for the replies! I really appreciate all of the help I get here! :D
 

ascott

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I personally feel if you have a burrowing tortoise that evolution has designed that way you owe it to your tortoise to read and study and ask questions in a goal to make yourself comfortable with allowing your tortoise to do what he was designed to do.

Yes, there can be health issues and even death that occur with brumation...but that is also a daily factor with folks who keep even non burrowing tortoise and keep them in what are thought of as optimum conditions...

And if you are new to tortoise then of course you would not be comfortable with brumation...silly :D. But you will do fantastic setting up for successful brumation after you do become versed at it....IMHO that is.

Laura, my boys get tickled today...lol
 

bellyboo

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ascott said:
I personally feel if you have a burrowing tortoise that evolution has designed that way you owe it to your tortoise to read and study and ask questions in a goal to make yourself comfortable with allowing your tortoise to do what he was designed to do.

Yes, there can be health issues and even death that occur with brumation...but that is also a daily factor with folks who keep even non burrowing tortoise and keep them in what are thought of as optimum conditions...

And if you are new to tortoise then of course you would not be comfortable with brumation...silly :D. But you will do fantastic setting up for successful brumation after you do become versed at it....IMHO that is.

Laura, my boys get tickled today...lol

That was sort of my thoughts, that I owe it to him to let him do what is natural. I will definitely be finding all info I possibly can before the time comes!

Thank you for your reply!
 

carnivorouszoo

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But the reason they do it in nature is because of the change in weather, temps, food availability and things that would kill them if awake. They go down when they can no longer survive in the current climate. Its not like they have an alarm that says ok its November, time to sleep! then sleep til another goes off in say April. It's triggered by natural conditions around them. If we can offer them the things they need I see no reason to force starved sleep on an animal. JMHO, for what it's worth. (may be new to torts but kept and bred corns without brumating had no health issues except scale rot on one who had it when I got him)
 

bellyboo

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carnivorouszoo said:
But the reason they do it in nature is because of the change in weather, temps, food availability and things that would kill them if awake. They go down when they can no longer survive in the current climate. Its not like they have an alarm that says ok its November, time to sleep! then sleep til another goes off in say April. It's triggered by natural conditions around them. If we can offer them the things they need I see no reason to force starved sleep on an animal. JMHO, for what it's worth. (may be new to torts but kept and bred corns without brumating had no health issues except scale rot on one who had it when I got him)

That is a very good point! I guess I hadn't thought about fact that temps are what drives them into it, not instinct. (Like I said, I have a LOT of learning to do!;) )

Thank you for your reply! It's nice to be able to hear all of the differing opinions and both sides, especially from experienced people.
 

ascott

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But the reason they do it in nature is because of the change in weather, temps, food availability and things that would kill them if awake. They go down when they can no longer survive in the current climate. Its not like they have an alarm that says ok its November, time to sleep! then sleep til another goes off in say April. It's triggered by natural conditions around them. If we can offer them the things they need I see no reason to force starved sleep on an animal. JMHO, for what it's worth.

I am always curious about this type of statement (and I am not saying it is wrong NOR right) just curious. I recall when we thought that desert (or arid) species needed no water (because they consumed all water they needed from food) and much later discovered this to NOT be the case. I recall when we thought that they should not be exposed to any humid conditions or they would rot and die (this also has been now shown to not be the case).

I do believe that there is absolutely a "clock" that triggers to a burrowing tortoise that the time is coming on--called evolution (we have loads of folks, even on this forum that describe that no matter what lights they set up, no matter what temps they force--their torts are slowed down and only want to burrow in, right?)... lots of folks will advise them to force them to stay up---is this also not a sign of evolution---I mean by your theory here if you leave the lights as is and make no allowance for them to change then in theory the tortoise should also make no changes in their behavior---we know this not to be the case, just peruse this forum alone and you will find this to indeed be the case.

I can force a burrowing tortoise into remaining awake....I can dig em out every few days and offer food and water---then that same tortoise will go and bury himself again---how is this beneficial to the gut of the tortoise as then that food remains longer than would be in the warmer times of year---or active time if you will....

If you allow a burrowing tortoise to do what evolution has designed them to do they will slow on their activity, slow then stop their eating (even if food is available) and will eventually settle into their brumation....this, in my opinion is natural....forcing a tortoise to remain somewhat awake that is designed to do this is not healthy in the longevity of the tortoise life..remember a tortoise can thrive for a long long, did I say long time.

I believe that there are so many other reasons that this sleep occurs and that we as simple humans can not be left in charge to try to say that the "apparent" reasons that trigger brumation are the ONLY reasons....

I find that we as humans want to make sure that nothing ever happens to our tortoise.....as do I. However, I feel that we hamper our tortoise when we try to change their evolutionary behavior.

I find that we are afraid of the things we do not fully understand..hence not allow these guys to do what they are designed to do. This is why I say that if you are going to host a burrowing tortoise you owe it to that tortoise to gain knowledge in all aspects of their evolutionary design and not try to come in and tinker with what we do not know for certain....we do this too much as it is with most things....those damn thumbs sure make us believe we know better.....hmmm.

So, this is a subject that I will happily agree to disagree with you on....I do hope though that folks that elect/choose/seek out and host....a burrowing species will give that tortoise a full and complete life cycle, and a complete life cycle of a burrowing tortoise includes brumation---no matter what you nor I believe on a personal level---this is the way they were designed....and survived so in turn have thrived as a species.

I do not know about you, but no matter how many ways I try to figure out how to ride out a gazzillion years to possibly try to make an evolutionary disruption in these awesome tortoise I just can not derive a viable way....therefore, I choose to follow the pattern of proven life and thriving life and follow what they are designed to do.... :D After all part of thriving is surviving....surviving to continue on....

Of course I will end with , in my humble opinion that is :D
 

bellyboo

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My little guy already spends, oh, the majority of his day completely buried and asleep. It's probably safe to assume he's going to be all for taking a nice long nap in the winter time. Lol! I know one thing for sure, I absolutely will not even think of attempting it until I feel fully confident. I'm definitely leaning towards letting him do what is natural though. We'll see.

Thanks again for the replies! It is all very interesting! :)
 

carnivorouszoo

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ascott said:
I am always curious about this type of statement (and I am not saying it is wrong NOR right) just curious.

I do believe that there is absolutely a "clock" that triggers to a burrowing tortoise that the time is coming on--called evolution (we have loads of folks, even on this forum that describe that no matter what lights they set up, no matter what temps they force--their torts are slowed down and only want to burrow in, right?)... lots of folks will advise them to force them to stay up---is this also not a sign of evolution---I mean by your theory here if you leave the lights as is and make no allowance for them to change then in theory the tortoise should also make no changes in their behavior---we know this not to be the case, just peruse this forum alone and you will find this to indeed be the case.

I can force a burrowing tortoise into remaining awake....I can dig em out every few days and offer food and water---then that same tortoise will go and bury himself again---how is this beneficial to the gut of the tortoise as then that food remains longer than would be in the warmer times of year---or active time if you will....

Ah, I do see your point but let me expand. Should an animal show inclination to hibernate or brumate anyway, then and only then (IMHO) should you strive to meet your individual animal's needs. However if an animal shows no desire to settle and slumber one should not force it on them. Mind you this is how I feel. It's in no way a firm rule or my looking down on anyone.

If you allow a burrowing tortoise to do what evolution has designed them to do they will slow on their activity, slow then stop their eating (even if food is available) and will eventually settle into their brumation....this, in my opinion is natural....forcing a tortoise to remain somewhat awake that is designed to do this is not healthy in the longevity of the tortoise life..remember a tortoise can thrive for a long long, did I say long time.

Again, if an individual animal should show that it desires to brumate by all means allow it to do so if it is in your power. As I am indeed new to tortoises I will learn if my own will need to, until he shows me what he needs I won't know. My corn snakes never slowed down, never stopped eating so I never brumated them. They did just fine, had they however showed signs of needing to brumate I most certainly would have.

I believe that there are so many other reasons that this sleep occurs and that we as simple humans can not be left in charge to try to say that the "apparent" reasons that trigger brumation are the ONLY reasons....

I apologize if I gave the impressions that those reasons I quoted were the only triggers, I claim to be an expert on nothing. Certainly there are other triggers perhaps some do have an internal clock of sorts, I can't say as I have not really dealt with it just yet.

I find that we are afraid of the things we do not fully understand..hence not allow these guys to do what they are designed to do. This is why I say that if you are going to host a burrowing tortoise you owe it to that tortoise to gain knowledge in all aspects of their evolutionary design and not try to come in and tinker with what we do not know for certain....we do this too much as it is with most things....those damn thumbs sure make us believe we know better.....hmmm.

Here now, I find that a tad insulting, I try my best to care for my animals as they need. I build the largest cages I can, give outdoor time when the weather agrees. I can not allow my russian outside in the winter here its far too cold and wet. He'd catch his death. Then you'd be complaining I killed him via neglect.

So, this is a subject that I will happily agree to disagree with you on....I do hope though that folks that elect/choose/seek out and host....a burrowing species will give that tortoise a full and complete life cycle, and a complete life cycle of a burrowing tortoise includes brumation---no matter what you nor I believe on a personal level---this is the way they were designed....and survived so in turn have thrived as a species.

I do not know about you, but no matter how many ways I try to figure out how to ride out a gazzillion years to possibly try to make an evolutionary disruption in these awesome tortoise I just can not derive a viable way....therefore, I choose to follow the pattern of proven life and thriving life and follow what they are designed to do.... :D After all part of thriving is surviving....surviving to continue on....

Of course I will end with , in my humble opinion that is :D

And a wonderful opinion it is! Each of us are entitled to them. However, though methods of care may vary, as long as the animal is healthy and proven to be so by a knowledgeable vet both ways seem to be viable. When its proven that not brumating harms, hinders or kills I will agree with you completely.
 

ascott

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I find that we are afraid of the things we do not fully understand..hence not allow these guys to do what they are designed to do. This is why I say that if you are going to host a burrowing tortoise you owe it to that tortoise to gain knowledge in all aspects of their evolutionary design and not try to come in and tinker with what we do not know for certain....we do this too much as it is with most things....those damn thumbs sure make us believe we know better.....hmmm.

Here now, I find that a tad insulting, I try my best to care for my animals as they need. I build the largest cages I can, give outdoor time when the weather agrees. I can not allow my russian outside in the winter here its far too cold and wet. He'd catch his death. Then you'd be complaining I killed him via neglect.

Hold on....waaaiiiittttt :D Please do not take me stating my opinion as a personal attack on you....by NO means was my opinion sharing in response to your opinion sharing a personal attack.....I always encourage folks to gather all information at their disposal and then from that hope that they tailor a set up and regimen that works for their reptile as well as them....so, please do not equate my opinion on the thread title and response to your post cause you insult as that was not at all my intent. okay?:D

When its proven that not brumating harms, hinders or kills I will agree with you completely.

Me again :D....I feel compelled to express to you that my opinion being stated in no fashion was a process to get you to agree with me, sightly nor completely :D This is why I expressed at the very first sentence of my response post "I am always curious about this type of statement (and I am not saying it is wrong NOR right) just curious."

I in all honesty value the opinions of all Forum members here and value the opinion of other caregivers....I love to hear fresh thoughts of folks who consider themselves new to Tortoise---sometimes a fresh set of eyes can inspire new thought....I welcome this.....I am always striving and starving for any and all new information that I can get....I strive to find answers to questions that have none.....

So, please understand that I simply felt compelled to give another side of thinking than that of which you shared.....okay?
 

ascott

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Here now, I find that a tad insulting, I try my best to care for my animals as they need. I build the largest cages I can, give outdoor time when the weather agrees. I can not allow my russian outside in the winter here its far too cold and wet. He'd catch his death. Then you'd be complaining I killed him via neglect.

Oh good, fricken awesome then...:D
 

carnivorouszoo

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ascott said:
Here now, I find that a tad insulting, I try my best to care for my animals as they need. I build the largest cages I can, give outdoor time when the weather agrees. I can not allow my russian outside in the winter here its far too cold and wet. He'd catch his death. Then you'd be complaining I killed him via neglect.

Oh good, fricken awesome then...:D

LOL oh THAT! I did find it a little insulting but did not necessarily mean to myself. Sorry! I got carried away but honestly did not feel attacked. Was just pointing out that anything anyone does with a formerly wild creature can be seen as bad, then noted why russians can't do natural brumation here. Could have been worded better I see that now.
 

GBtortoises

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The very simple answer to your question is "NO". It is not necessary to hiberate any tortoise, regardless of species, in captivity. Having done and still doing both, keeping some tortoises active through the winter and allowing others to hibernate, I can absolutely tell you that there is no difference whatsoever between the two in terms of health, activity level and so on. The only difference that I have ever observed is breeding consistency. Those that are hibernated have a more "scheduled" breeding period. Fertility is the same between the two as well as everything else.

Somewhere is was also mentioned about burrowing species hibernating. Hermann's are not a burrowing species.

It is not necessary to hibernate a tortoise in captivity, it is a choice to do so based on the environment you wish to provide.
 

bellyboo

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GBtortoises said:
The very simple answer to your question is "NO". It is not necessary to hiberate any tortoise, regardless of species, in captivity. Having done and still doing both, keeping some tortoises active through the winter and allowing others to hibernate, I can absolutely tell you that there is no difference whatsoever between the two in terms of health, activity level and so on. The only difference that I have ever observed is breeding consistency. Those that are hibernated have a more "scheduled" breeding period. Fertility is the same between the two as well as everything else.

Somewhere is was also mentioned about burrowing species hibernating. Hermann's are not a burrowing species.

It is not necessary to hibernate a tortoise in captivity, it is a choice to do so based on the environment you wish to provide.

Thank you very much for your reply! I truly do appreciate it! :)
 

ascott

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Hermann's are not a burrowing species.

Absolutely correct GB, they do dig into a pallet and not a full blown burrow---they can also brumate for approximately 4 months in the wild.... :D

Bellyboo, as you can see there are loads of different opinions on this natural life cycle. As all other keepers have done, you will be the deciding factor as to what your tortoise will be allowed to do or not...good luck in your research on the subject.....:D
 

Tom

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When I first joined this forum a couple of years ago, I was of the opinion that if a tortoise, or any other animal, "hibernated" in the wild, then they should hibernate in captivity too. Many members on this forum, GB included, have demonstrated to me that is is not "necessary". But like Angela, I do think it is a good idea in most cases. Just my opinion on the matter.

I too have seen animals that are determined to put themselves down for the winter even when temps and light cycles are increased or maintained.

Lastly, I frequently see people say that hibernation can lead to death or illness. I have never seen this happen when it was done correctly with the proper lead in time and lead out time. The only time I have seen fatalities is when they are hibernated outside and some sort of extreme or unexpected weather comes along, or it was attempted in an unsuitable climate, like mine. I have always hibernated my animals indoors in controlled conditions and have never had a problem. I'm trying it outdoors this year on my tegu, but its with a pretty elaborate, safe, stable, underground set-up. The temp is staying very stable down there and there is no possibility of flooding or collapse. So far, so good.
 
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