Is Hibernation Absolutely Required?

[Tccarolina]

Fabian,
you have a very picturesque command of the English language, and are a skillful literary debater. I find myself laughing as I read some of your responses. I can't help but think this gives you an unfair advantage.

Steve

 

[ascott]

Again, food is absolutely required, brumation is NOT absolutely required in keeping tortoises in captivity. I don't know how to make it any easier to comprehend than that.

I apologize, here you make a statement (as underlined) that you can not, without exact proof of the lifelong affect on the tortoise, make. In my beliefs, brumation is AS important as food. Do you-- not understand?

You are not qualified to make that type of statement (unless of course you have been around since the start of life)....lets keep this clear. If your opinion or beliefs are such then awesome, we all have beliefs and opinions.

I have said all through every post that what I state are my beliefs---what you state here should only be made by you based on your beliefs and opinions....as is the basis for my continuation for this ongoing discussion.

This forum is not designed as a scientific based ONLY forum...if it were there would not be much of a forum, as most here are not qualified (by degrees, published reports and studies) to participate in such a forum. (IMHO, lets not forget this one )

If you want me to say that there is no proof, that a tortoise that has brumation as part of their life cycle should be brumated or not (I have no need to do this--Proof is in the pudding so to speak--at least a gazillion years of proof, give or take vs 30 or so years of domesticated care).

We have forced domestication on tortoise for a relatively short amount of years vs their entire being---therefore, we have no true published report/study that has taken place over (well lets make it a short evolutionary time frame, shall we) the last 500 years or so-- to show the outcome of forcing a tortoise that brumates as part of their evolutionary life cycle, to not complete their life cycle--and in some tortoise, it is inclusive of brumation. I choose to follow the rules of nature as much as "humanly" possible. Again, this is my beliefs.

Now, I have shared my beliefs and opinions on this thread topic. You seem to be having then a discussion based on nothing---as you say you are not pro or con----how about you commit and give a statement that shows which you are, pro or con?---I dont mean leaving lights on--offering food from time to time during the "down" times....but I mean really give a statement based on your beliefs on this topic question....if indeed your only point is to prove that there is no published way to prove if brumation is required in a brumating species...then I have to laugh when I say, NO DUH

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

In my beliefs, brumation is AS important as food.

Must respectfully point out a pair of Iberians that I gave to the lady I previous mentioned as losing her entire collection due to the bad advice that brumation was absolutely needful...I bought both in 1981, gave them to her after the tragedy, and she still has them, so that's 30 years I know of their non-brumated life (guessing they were at least 10 yoa when I bought them), and in 30 years they've lived healthily, laid several viable clutches of eggs, and added maybe as many as 200 new members to the world-wide Iberian tortoise population...

I must respectfully point out that I seriously doubt they'd've lived that long and well had they not been fed during that period...

And so, I must respectfully conclude that brumatiing them is hardly as important as feeding them.

 

[ascott]

Hi Terry,

Here is in where I believe that there may be a missing of the minds, I mean that with great respect.

I am a person that believes that the whole picture, that every piece of the pie allows the rest of the pie to successfully be whole. To be as designed.

I believe that if one of the pieces is removed, voided--that the whole is no longer.

So, for this way of believing, each part is essential to the well being of each of the other parts....I believe that for a tortoise that is designed to brumate, if you remove this part of the whole---we do not know what the lifelong result will be, let alone the evolutionary impact....I believe to be simply a caregiver of a tortoise...a buffer, if you will....they will continue on well beyond my short existence.

Therefore, I find that the best teacher to me on how to continue to provide care for a species of tortoise that has included brumation in its lifecycle, is to indeed continue the evolutionary design. This design, in my opinion, has shown to be very successful on behalf of the various species of tortoise.

 

[dmmj]

I like pie

 

[ascott]

I like pie

 

[Yvonne G]

Its too bad that Ed doesn't post here anymore. He has a different outlook on whether a tortoise is "designed" to brumate or not. I hesitate to write this, because I don't want to mis-speak, but if I'm remembering correctly, he has allowed his tortoises a cool-down period during the winter and these included aldabrans, redfoots and leopards. What I gather from that is that a tortoise isn't necessarily "designed" to brumate, but rather will brumate if the conditions are such that it is required.

 

[jaizei]

Its too bad that Ed doesn't post here anymore. He has a different outlook on whether a tortoise is "designed" to brumate or not. I hesitate to write this, because I don't want to mis-speak, but if I'm remembering correctly, he has allowed his tortoises a cool-down period during the winter and these included aldabrans, redfoots and leopards. What I gather from that is that a tortoise isn't necessarily "designed" to brumate, but rather will brumate if the conditions are such that it is required.

That's exactly what I was referring to. I was hesitant to mention Ed or link to the thread because he is not here to speak for himself.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-help-does-my-hermanns-need-to-hibernate#axzz1iAMtPT1H

---

And for good measure

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-much-should-I-pay-my-pet-sitter?page=2#axzz1iF2mIF4o

 

[Tim/Robin]

An act to survive unfavorable conditions. Did they choose to do it hundreds of thousands of years ago, or was it necessary to ensure their survival? I am sure we all know the answer to that question.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I like pie

Baking a couple of Bartlett pear pies (say that 5X fast! ) even as we continue this discussion.

 

[Yvonne G]

I have an anecdote to share:

About five years ago I received a whole breeding colony of Russian tortoises from an acquaintance who lives in San Diego. She felt the tortoises needed to live in a climate where it gets colder in the winter because they wouldn't hibernate for her. So, in warmer climates, a group of tortoises that usually hibernate in the wild, was not hibernating.

 

[bellyboo]

Oh my, I apologize for abandoning my thread. Obviously it's grown and look forward to reading through it when I get a moment. I've been traveling for the holidays.

 

[Yvonne G]

No, Isabelle, its us who need to apologize to you. You asked if it was absolutely required for a hermann's tortoise to hibernate and we all went off onto the brumation/hibernation tangent and decided it needed to be debated rather than giving you what you asked for. I hope its ok with you that a moderator didn't step in and make them stay on topic. But it really is a worthy discussion. (at least that's my excuse.)

 

[bellyboo]

No, Isabelle, its us who need to apologize to you. You asked if it was absolutely required for a hermann's tortoise to hibernate and we all went off onto the brumation/hibernation tangent and decided it needed to be debated rather than giving you what you asked for. I hope its ok with you that a moderator didn't step in and make them stay on topic. But it really is a worthy discussion. (at least that's my excuse.)

By all means, debate away! That's perfectly fine. I look forward to reading through all of it!

 

[CactusVinnie]

Tim/Robin,

I really don't know nothing about your background, but from your only "huh??" it sounded like... well... simply "huh??"... What should I had understood from that? Anything but that you may be familiar with the field!
And that "assume nothing", while it is a good advice in general, it just fades and became banal. Of course nobody can assume too much about the others here- with the exception of Terry, who really had a glimpse on my true personality and intelect .

brumation is AS important as food

About comparing the need to feed vs the need of brumate- that is, from the start, a very weird thing, to say the least!!! That's not what Angela wanted to say, it was a metaphore to show how mandatory is brumation in her opinion! You took it literally on purpose and that was not fair...

Hunger finally kills, non-brumating has other, subtle consequences, belonging to the endocrine area!! If you are a poultry- industry king, or at least very familiar with that field, yourself or the veterinarians you maybe work with should know what I am talking about. So, if you knew, why that "huh??" and so much mystery?
It just manipulates the endocrine system by various schedules of light, temperature and food, to gain more and fast, with an obvious material interest.
Can't the same thing happen, unwillingly, when keeping a pet-tortoise? Of course it can, and it does! It is about disrupting the normal glandular activity, a debilitating practice- be it on short or longterm, be it on mammal, fish, bird or reptile.

Except for the demonstrated- no matter you would ask again and again from a simple, clear statistic- hatchling and juvenile increased mortality, NOBODY- me, Angela or anyone- said that overwintering just... KILLS!! You are now twisting our opinion towards something else!
We just strongly affirm it is HEALTHIER, and it is a good practice to respect that part of an annual cycle in a tortoise life, as well as we find a bad practice to keep the captive animals in drastically different conditions from those in the wild- that including brumation, diet, biotope etc.


Supremelysteve,

Thanks for the double compliment !! I truly hear you , I know what you mean! I know my English is... let's say, different, to be safe... and I have a certain... gift in debating (and to quote Terry, especially in debating when knowing nothing but that I'm the best, period ! If I made you smile, you made me smile too, since I got what you meant!


Yvonne,

When I will have time, I will search through Ed's (it's EJ, isn't it?) messages. Indeed too bad he is not here anymore.
About the Russians: San Diego in winter is as warm to MUCH WARMER compared to Russian's habitat in springtime! Compare to Tashkent climate- only 2*C cooller!; compare to Atyrau... so many degrees warmer, that... "comparison is futile", as Borgs used to say.
So, no wonder they are active all winter! Remeber, I compared winter in San Diego to spring in habitat, no winter to winter!
Chech Weatherbase, for instance, and correlate with Agrionemys areal. Numbing cold in winter, much cooler springs than yours.


Terry,

You keep not insinuating, but openly affirming that brumation kills tortoises! What the "assume nothing" advice tells you this time, when it is really need for a closer look?
I asked you about details on this case- received nothing, no information, not a single word related to tortoises!!!

So, as long as you do not really participate with facts, in a constructive manner, and instead showing... let's say sad conclusions regarding my person... realise for yourself that you had NO CONTRIBUTION in any tortoise discussion.

I gave you last days 20 minutes from my time... searching through your first messages- those usually are the most savurous and spicy ones, because they show the initial, real level of knowledge of many forum-Barracudas, wich prove to be, in fact, Guppies .
You are, in fact, a 2010 beginner, just like me! Well, of course I didn't kept tortoises as long as you did, but talking here about the other level- the true tortoise keeping, wich it seems that we both started in the same year.
You asked elementary questions about food, maturity size and lots of elementary simple things! What breeding? What hatchlings? Incubating technique? What old knowledge- wich is not by far the same with having decades of tortoise keeping!!

I personally know an elder person wich has tortoises for more than 30 years, and I really wondered how on Earth could they just survive in those idiotic, revolting conditions they lived in!! And... that's not all!! One female once managed even to lay eggs- of course, nothing came out of them... They are 6 Romanian Ibera, liberally taken as adults from the wild... to be "taken care of"... What an imbecile!!! Well, they always brumate in an unheated room. Lucky them... if I may say that "lucky" word ...

So, can he talk about "my 30 years of experience in tortoise keeping"? Oh, YES! He just do that with any opportunity, with maximum ease and confidence, while he is in reality nothing more then a dumb ignorant, who put an end to the life of 6 adult tortoises! Because, even not dead yet, the species lost 6 breeding individuals, and in 30 years, hundreds of babies that could have been now, in a certain percent, old breeding individuals, with at least 15 breeding seasons behind them, even grand-parents at their turn!!!

Now... I am not insulting you by comparing that... man... with you! Because you are not the same stuff- you searched knowledge, while he sees himself already all-knowing- "30 years of experience", isn't it?
Too bad that you are too rigid and don't accept any approach that differs from what you have learned before.

So, nothing bad in being a beginner- no matter the age, the will to know is important. But it's embarassing, in my opinion, to be that active in putting me down with quite unfriendly words (although no vulgarity in your language), while there is a very narrow chance that I could know a bit more than you know.

There is no offence/irony in my words- after all, I am a bloody ecology graduate with a master degree, I love tortoises, I had lots of time (as a simple school-teacher) to study them (and that's what I did for maybe hundreds of hours on the Net), including visits in their habitat (4 in 15 years)---> all that giving me an advantage over you- call it unfair if you want.

All that stuff was not intended to show how smart I am- after all, I am just a school/sometimes highschool teacher, not a researcher or something similar. In fact, I am basically a loser, but a honnest one, and a very good hobbyst, be it about cacti, fish, tortoises and a few other unimportant things. Too bad I wasn't in the money thing- I would have been a very rich man now...
That's all, and I hope we settled that embarassing, unconfortable exchange of hostile-ish replies. If not, let's put facts in our replies, that way at least we will have an useful exchange of ideas, even not becoming buddies. Well, "buddies" is too much, but I would be honored if an elder would have a friendly approach on me.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Terry,

You keep not insinuating, but openly affirming that brumation kills tortoises! What the "assume nothing" advice tells you this time, when it is really need for a closer look?
I asked you about details on this case- received nothing, no information, not a single word related to tortoises!!!

No, I stated openly, not insinuated, that brumation CAN kill captive tortoises and that there's not a single reason to force a captive tortoise to brumate.

And you have clearly shown that you only want to hear how right you are, not how you might be wrong, so I feel no obligation to waste the forum's valuable bandwidth by writing in the long-winded manner you feel you must...hopefully, many here will recognize quality in my answers, if not, quantity won't change anyone's opinion.

So, as long as you do not really participate with facts, in a constructive manner, and instead showing... let's say sad conclusions regarding my person... realise for yourself that you had NO CONTRIBUTION in any tortoise discussion.

I must've missed the memo that put you in charge of what is an acceptable contribution...

And to, once again, answer the initial question for bellyboo: No, brumation is really not required for your Hermann's tortoise to live a long healthy life. There is no real evidence, either way, that brumation or allowing them to stay warm, well-fed and awake through the cold season has any tangible effect on their health, longevity or ability to reproduce. It truly makes no difference, which is why so many don't bother...and the tortoises don't care.

OTOH, if you don't know every little thing about brumation, you can kill your tortoise, because it's not a simple matter to brumate them...so, if your tortoise is living well in captivity, due to the right food, temperature range, and lighting conditions are being met, it can continue living just as well through the winter, too.

And if you decide brumation is what you want to have your tortoise do, be sure you know everything about it before you commence.

---

I have an anecdote to share:

About five years ago I received a whole breeding colony of Russian tortoises from an acquaintance who lives in San Diego. She felt the tortoises needed to live in a climate where it gets colder in the winter because they wouldn't hibernate for her. So, in warmer climates, a group of tortoises that usually hibernate in the wild, was not hibernating.

I suspect that no "hibernating" tortoise will hibernate if it doesn't get cold enough, and will come up when there are warm spells (likely to become more of an accurance now that Climate Change is under way), thus the recent stories of Hermann's, Greeks, Russians and Marginateds out on warmer winter days, try to hustle up some food.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Terry,
Valuable bandwith or not, here's my word.

realise for yourself that you had NO CONTRIBUTION in any tortoise discussion.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=38255#ixzz1iHSSklkz

I meant in any tortoise brumation discussion only. No need of memo, since, I repeat - again and again- no bit of details about offered by you, only brief, truncated report, and your (doubtful) conclusion regarding the cause. That's pretty enough for me.

BTW, Hermanns, Greek, Marginated (Russians- I don't think so) came out in warm winter episodes also in habitat, in some places almost every year; unlikely but not impossible here. It is happening at the moment in all Mediteranean basin. Abnormal warm winter. Bucharest is more like Kavala, Greece now, but not enough warmth for them to go out, fortunately.

 

[ascott]

About comparing the need to feed vs the need of brumate- that is, from the start, a very weird thing, to say the least!!! That's not what Angela wanted to say, it was a metaphore to show how mandatory is brumation in her opinion! You took it literally on purpose and that was not fair...

Fabian, thank you and you were absolutely bang on here.

Except for the demonstrated- no matter you would ask again and again from a simple, clear statistic- hatchling and juvenile increased mortality, NOBODY- me, Angela or anyone- said that overwintering just... KILLS!! You are now twisting our opinion towards something else!
We just strongly affirm it is HEALTHIER, and it is a good practice to respect that part of an annual cycle in a tortoise life, as well as we find a bad practice to keep the captive animals in drastically different conditions from those in the wild- that including brumation, diet, biotope etc.

Again here, I completely agree.

An act to survive unfavorable conditions. Did they choose to do it hundreds of thousands of years ago, or was it necessary to ensure their survival? I am sure we all know the answer to that question.

This is the best comment (I mean this seriously, not sarcastically) I do not know where it is documented that Evolution takes requests....it simply is.

So, yes--they choose to survive, so yes they chose to do what it takes to survive and evolve, so yes--they did choose, there fore this part of their life cycle serves them well, why abandon it now? What will happen if their life cycle is disrupted, and I ask this in the long term--not merely a hundred years or a thousand years? These are questions that you can not answer, none of us can for certain, but rather can certainly give ones opinion on

So, I would suppose "we all" don't really know the answer to that statement...but again, thank you for bringing up that great point....

 

[Yvonne G]

So, yes--they choose to survive, so yes they chose to do what it takes to survive and evolve, so yes--they did choose, there fore this part of their life cycle serves them well, why abandon it now? What will happen if their life cycle is disrupted, and I ask this in the long term--not merely a hundred years or a thousand years?

I think you're making the argument's other side point with this bit. Evolution caused the tortoises to need to brumate. It got cold so they adapted. Likewise, if its not cold, they don't need to brumate.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Angela,

I hardly found vague referrences to brumation deaths... in fact, no documented case. I really found ZERO cases on all my forum diggings when even a single person to say "although temperature and humidity were in the accepted limits, I found my tortoise/s dead in fridge/hibernacula"!
What I do found- many reports of death by freezing in unproper brumation quarters. BTW, some freezings resulted in unfazed survivors, either if took out of brumation or let them continuing it.
Also, some dehydration deaths, especially in juveniles- and as far as we know, correct brumation usually reduce juvenile mortality. That makes sense, since juveniles are so tiny and easy to dehydrate in no time=> MISTAKE.

I do not imply that brumation deaths didn't exist, but I am also tired to point that mistakes from the owner's part are excluded.

I recalled the totally wrong and unmotivated myth that "tortoises should reach adulthood/5-6 years before being let to brumate." I read that nonsense in a lot of places- where, of course, it was discarded, people there pointing out that nobody keeps tiny tortoises awake until they get bigger. But how many keepers had the inspiration to ask, and to ask at the proper place? Obviously, they are rather the type of keepers who offer to their tortoises bananas+ other fruits, lettuce, mustard greens, cabbage, maybe glass vivaria indoors, resulting in weakened tortoises, if not severely deformed.
Well, yes, I doubt too that this kind of keeper knows something on brumation, and when he tries it just because other equally "experienced" voices advice him so, it results in disaster. I wrote "experienced", because no one who has not much, but just correct basic knowledge in tortoises (my type of keeper) would advice brumation for any tortoise, only after questioning and recommending first preparing the debile tortoise for that: at least one season outdoors, with correct feeding!

So, I see the recipe for disaster in that "first get big, then hibernate" type of advices. I surely accept that this could result in "brumation death"! It shows how ignorance, not brumation, kills!

Another problem: how many keepers from the "many", but rather doubtful ones who lost a tortoise in brumation surely had a correct identified temperate climate tortoise?
Bad husbandry, bad understanding and preparation for winter, and finally... a few months of cold for a... Maghreb tortoise (!), that brumates in a very different manner (a little warmer, with often emerging episodes; they often even don't go underground!!)- where all those things can lead? Yes, I wouldn't bet too much on the tortoise survival, in such conditions.

Keep in mind that the "brumation deaths" are almost legends. Even if they were real, and even numerous, they could belong to the other tortoise-keeping era- namely, the time when Britain especially sucked literally hundreds of thousands of N-African tortoises, when they were ridiculously cheap, to be found at almost any place, and they were called, in a familiar way, "garden tortoises". Considering the well-known fragility of these Graeca-complex taxons, and the very low level of real knowledge in tortoise keeping in general, no wonder that the legend appeared!
Situation turn: laws in Maghreb countries changed, the huge legal depletion of native tortoise population stopped, but continued with much reduced numbers as low-scale poaching and traffic.
Where to get tortoises from? Quite fast, the Balkans and Turkey became the most important suppliers. This time, it was Boettgeri and Ibera time, and, as we know, baby, they are smashing hardy ! Those much resilient taxons, although still ending in the hands of ignorant owners, were not that easy to kill (see my above story on that idiot that managed to keep alive 6 Iberas in horrible conditions). They even endured British winters outdoors. Not all survived, but brumation deaths became so rare, and, with time passing and improving quality of available information on tortoise keeping, they almost "faded in the mists of oblivion" ...

Of course, in parallel, the same evolution happened in France and Germany. Germany had not too much access to African Graecas, but Balkan/Turkey tortoises had flown there in great numbers. Communist countries (Romania not included) also received some Agrionemys from communist Central Asia republics.

That not so wild speculation of mine may explain the insubstantiality of the "brumation kills" ridiculous legend.

I tried to compensate my bulk-quantity/poor quality messages with even more... quantity , since I am not that full of quality and I am not that precious with the poor, exceeded, bandwidth. At least, some of us really use it .

Yvonne,

Yes, it is logical what you said. Just it is about long-term adaptations, not that we do with our temperate tortoises for short-term. Only around Mediterranean Basin you find true-brumating tortoises, milder/shorter/discontinue-brumating tortoises, to never brumating tortoises. Each group adapted for different conditions.
Of course, neither me, and I think Angela too, advocate Morroco tortoises to be brumated as Iberas- although some manage to do that. I just point out that I am only talking about Hermanni, Ibera, Marginata, Horsfieldi. To each tortoise, respecting his natural cycle- be it brumation, wet/dry seasons dictated behaviour etc.