Is Hibernation Absolutely Required?

[ascott]

I think you're making the argument's other side point with this bit. Evolution caused the tortoises to need to brumate. It got cold so they adapted. Likewise, if its not cold, they don't need to brumate.

Hi Yvonne,

I believe that I said in like 500 of my prior posts D) that brumation is a part of some tortoise species life cycle.

The absence of food, the freezing temps are indeed factors of the whole cycle which are part of many triggers that some tortoise species have been designed with, this is evolution, as like with brumation is a part of some tortoise species life cycle-- as is aestivation for the flip season...again, all part of the life cycle of the tortoise..

Yvonne, my point is and has been; we should not monkey with what evolution has designed. So, if I were to force my CDTs to remain awake once they do their natural slow down I would be altering their evolutionary cycle.

Evolution has built into them switches that are triggered by a variety of reason--which we only can speculate those obvious reasons, as we have not observed and documented them in captivity on a wide scale for many years (only the last 30-40 years have we forced domestication in large numbers)....my concern is that if we provide all other replication to their daily life (life cycle) BUT then refuse to allow them to complete their cycle, refusing a brumating tortoise its right to complete its cycle---we are altering their design. How will this affect our tortoise in the life of the tortoise? You, me, nor anyone can tell this---we can speculate---we can gather our own conclusions....however, I choose to follow what evolution has proven works for the tortoise....

Also, I am not participating in this thread to win any argument...I felt it necessary to share that there is support for folks who want to also follow the natural life cycle of specific brumating tortoise. I answered the question on this thread with what I believe---as did with others.

When I see this subject come to light on the forum it is immediately met with alot of folks saying things like no--don't do it your tortoise will be dead, no---don't do it you are being cruel to force starve your tortoise, no---don't do it ---THERE IS NO REASON....? Evolution has proven that it is a part of their life cycle...proven it with their continued existence....

I am not qualified to think that I know better than what is....I believe that we should serve as a buffer rather than to dominate yet another species....I believe that we simply muck things up more times than not and don't appreciate and give way to the grand design of things that came long before us and will also remain and evolve further well beyond each of us....I simply think that we should allow what is to be what is...

 

[Tim/Robin]

they choose to survive, so yes they chose to do what it takes to survive and evolve, so yes--they did choose, there fore this part of their life cycle serves them well,

Was it really a choice? I hardly think so. If they choose the other route, (not to brumate during unfavorable conditions) they cease to exist.

Is evolution a choice? Do the weaker simply choose to die and the stronger survive? Again, I hardly think so. I think you yourself said "it simply is".

I never remember any reference about evolution being a choice. If I am forgetting something, please help me remember and point me where I can read more and get it right.

Please note: my reference to evolution here is "biological evolution" as very simply defined "a change in a population or populations over the course of generations".

 

[ascott]

I recalled the totally wrong and unmotivated myth that "tortoises should reach adulthood/5-6 years before being let to brumate." I read that nonsense in a lot of places- where, of course, it was discarded, people there pointing out that nobody keeps tiny tortoises awake until they get bigger. But how many keepers had the inspiration to ask, and to ask at the proper place?

Fabian,

I have to share, I was a person that fed into this--my reason for my feed into this was based from simple old fashion ugly fear and ignorance ---fear that if I were to share my beliefs with someone---that I do believe and know that hatchlings and young tortoise brumate, and then they in turn took my belief on this subject and were then not detail oriented enough, that they could expose the youngins to the wrong conditions and cause harm or fatality...

I believe that with hatchlings and young tortoise there is a bit of tweaking that has to happen to provide a successful set up for brumation---special care has to be taken for hydration (before, during and after) along with quick dehydration being a real thing---length of time offered for the youngin to brumate and such---all are a bit more critical for a youngin than the bit hardier and more forgiving adult.

In my studies though (along now with the added observations you also have shared, thank you) I find that I am getting a bit more comfortable with sharing information that it can be a positive thing to do and to not be so fearful, but rather educate. In regards to youngins I mean

I of course will continue to educate myself with any and all published reports to gain as much knowledge of the performance of brumation for youngins. As well as absorb as much first hand knowledge and tips from care givers that perform this on a regular basis....

 

[CactusVinnie]

I never remember any reference about evolution being a choice. If I am forgetting something, please help me remember and point me where I can read more and get it right. Tongue

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=7#ixzz1iKkurVTr

Tim/Robin, if I may chime in:

If evolution is not a choice, I wonder what do you understand by "choice" when talking about a plant or an animal- except humans! Still yet, it seems that "choice"- in the sense related to "will"- do exist- check Lamarck approach. Beings seemed to relentlessly "want" to change in order to adapt, evolution being not based on "survival of the fittest", wich is not by far enough in explaining more than some evolutionary aspects.
But if we get into evolutionary theories, or even Evolution vs. Creation thing, the problem of brumating vs. non-brumating would became something like believer vs. non-believer- different approaches/views on life in general. In fact, that is the real problem (or "cause", it sounds more neutral)- we simply cannot see things in the same way.

Angela,

I admitted myself that I was too a little tempted to "make it easier/shorter" for my hatchlings. The reason: first timer, a kind of fear that I may be wrong somewhere and kill the babies...
The long interval when the keeper doesn't see his hatchlings daily generates an insecurity feeling (are they ok there? Is it something bad happening there in the cold, and I maybe miss it? they are so tiny! should I check them more often? but I may disturb them? and be forced to stop the brumation? etc.).
I felt the same fear as you - but I always considered a simple truth: they do that in the wild with ease, only 200km east of Bucharest; they are strong enough to dig, even with those tiny, soft claws; nobody baths them and keeps them hydrated; if it's drought, they just hide, while in my care they still feed; well, quite an easy and safe life for a hatchling- so if they can do it without any help, they surely can do it even safer when helped!
That and reading other's people experiences and clear, unambiguous advices that they should brumate as the adults, make me let any fear and be determined: if I do it correctly, following nature's simple ways, it will be ok! Because it's not witchcraft, nor Russian roulette- it's just respecting a few simple keypoints.

You definitely are on the way to profound understanding, if I am allowed to say my humble opinion. Anyone on that way is not mistake and doubt-free, but the most important thing- as Terry said, and he knows better - is an open mind.

 

[Tim/Robin]

how about you commit and give a statement that shows which you are, pro or con?---

So as not to ignore your request.......

I simply cannot say I am for or against brumation! Can it be done successfully? YES, it has been done by many. Is it beneficial to the animal? I have seen no proof that this is true. I have not found the study Fabian quoted translated to English. Therefore I have not read it or critiqued it to have formed my own opinion of it. I have never lost a brumating species hatchling, and I have never brumated a single one. So my data is contrary to the research explained by Fabian.
Can a brumating species be kept successfully with out brumation? YES, it too has been done by many. (please note, I have absolutely no experience with desert tortoises native to the US) My personal thought is, brumation is done out of a necessity to survive unfavorable conditions. I see no reason to subject my personal animals to unfavorable conditions. I have not seen any convincing evidence to change my view on that. But again, I do not say what I do is what everyone should do, therefore I am not for or against it. We each have our own thoughts, methods, and reasons for keeping tortoises they way we do. We also all live in very different climates and environments.

---

we simply cannot see things in the same way.

Agreed!!

 

[ascott]

Agreed!!

Tim/Robin,

I can happily "DITTO". I feel we have achieved a meeting of the minds with this reply, meeting of the minds does not mean we have to agree, but simply understand. I thank you for all of your input, seriously I do.

Fabian,

I thank you for your thoughts and sharing. I look forward, with child like eagerness, to these types of conversation in the future....

Terry,

I also have enjoyed your participation in this thread. Thank you.

Yvonne,

I always enjoy your input as well. Thank you.

And thanks to everyone else who also took the time to come in and visit this ongoing conversation.

Bellyboo; I do truly hope that you will absorb from all of the information shared here in great detail a format from with which to find your own path of care giving.... thank you for offering this thread up for us to share and enjoy---and learn.

 

[Tim/Robin]

Tim/Robin,

I can happily "DITTO". I feel we have achieved a meeting of the minds with this reply, meeting of the minds does not mean we have to agree, but simply understand. I thank you for all of your input, seriously I do.

Thank you too. I (Tim) will go back under my rock and do what I do best. That is caring for and producing some amazing tortoises, it certainly is not debating .

 

[CactusVinnie]

If people here use to thank wich other after a debate, me too, I will thank to all participants to this discussion!
I surely saw different approaches to learn from and I enjoyed it!

Me too, I will soon crawl under the cover of my underground hydrophore chamber to do what I do good enough : checking my brumating babies!

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

It has been, indeed, a lively little debate.

 

[Yvonne G]

And it just goes to prove that we, as a group, can be civil and have debates without it getting to a point where a moderator has to step in and rein us in. Thank you all for that!

 

[CactusVinnie]

It will never need that, Yvonne !


GB, there are some aspects that puzzle me.

I had an Ibera that received a 6 weks brumation (short one, since she arrived in December). Next spring she laid 4 eggs, all generating perfect babies. I cannot count that as brumation or overwintering, but it was definitely a restart of her system. Influence in fertility? I cannot say now.

Now I have another Ibera rescued- she had a horrible life for at least 2-3 years, maybe- but this one will definitely not brumate a bit, since it has an intermittent runny nose- in fact, not the well-known contagious type of RNS, since she ate greedily, and none of her neigbours showed any problem. She was very weak, and she had a bad purulent infection at the nostrils level- I cleaned the resulting wound, it reinfected, then healed, then passing to the another nostril etc. Gaining some strength (even syringe fed initially, with a kind of weeds-shake), she managed to fare well even now, when indoors. I logically suppose that when spring arrives, she will be able to force out the infection and heal for good. Maybe even to lay some eggs ? She gained quite some weight under my care, and as weight concerns, she would be fit enough for just a few eggs- who knows? I just hope, she is very beautiful!

Now, it is just carrying and waiting. But I have dug a little about overwintering breeders to find about resulting level of fertility, because on my other forums all breeders brumate, and success in those conditions is no surprise.
You used to say it's a clear difference:

10-11-2011, 03:48 PM
Post: #50
GBtortoises Offline
Mediterraneans and more.
The Catskill Mountains
********
Posts: 2,038
Joined: Feb 2009
RE: Hibernation for Testudo
Ryan breeding method contains consistency (along with alot of heat and dryness) which I think is the most important aspect of tortoise breeding-routine. I've always believed that the most sucessful breeders live in areas of warmer longer summers and mild to no winters, even with Northern Mediterranean Testudo species. Or kept their tortoises exclusively indoors. In order for me to do that here in the Northeast with all that I have I would need a 50' x 100' or bigger opne barn that was insulated and heated. The wife isn't up for that!
As far as the Russian subspecies issue-for the most part, very few researchers and experts except the subspecies. I tend to agree with them and believe that they are only different physical variations based on different geographical regions, but the same species.
Mick-Hibernation may not affect tortoises in your climate as they do in mine, but here where I live my tortoises show a very obvious response to hibernation in relation to spring mating. I have adult Testudo that I keep indoors, awake throughout the winter and place them outdoors in the spring. They breed and produce eggs very inconsistenly. I also have groups that hibernate outdoors here from November through April. From the point of first coming out of the ground you can just about set your watch to them. They breed and then produce their first, second and often third clutch of eggs like clockwork. A very important result of this is that my outdoor tortoises have a far higher fertility rate than do my tortoises that are overwintered indoors. But again, I believe that it may have everything to do with the climate that they are exposed to.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Hibernation-for-Testudo?page=4#ixzz1iTO7HOMy

... then pointing out it doesn't matter at all:

The very simple answer to your question is "NO". It is not necessary to hiberate any tortoise, regardless of species, in captivity. Having done and still doing both, keeping some tortoises active through the winter and allowing others to hibernate, I can absolutely tell you that there is no difference whatsoever between the two in terms of health, activity level and so on. The only difference that I have ever observed is breeding consistency. Those that are hibernated have a more "scheduled" breeding period. Fertility is the same between the two as well as everything else.

Being a beginner with only 2 clutches from 2 females, anyway no comparison term for now. It will not matter too much, since I will brumate all the fit tortoises, once they are truly fit, so even less chances to compare brumating vs. non-brumating fertility rates. But it will happen to have such a case from time to time- until now, all my rescue subjects were ADULTS, since they are usually "colected" by people- and the overwintering-breeding part truly interests me at least for improving my general knowledge, and maybe for practical guidance in similar cases.

Just being curious why the radically different affirmations in such a short interval- I am just nosy as a Hermanni, not looking for catching people when contradicting themselves and other tricks. Just wanting to know the reason.

 

[carnivorouszoo]

CZoo,

Yes, w- MO is far too wet, but you have options in order to brumate Talison. The simplest one: the fridge. Especially with a single tortoise.
My RT were too active piglets last year, at this time- I prolonged their active period in order to offer them a short brumation, that was planned to end right around natural awakening date. If forced with enough heat and light, tortoises stay active. For Horsfieldi, it was enough 13*-18*C ambient temperature with good basking area.

Can't use the fridge. I use it for food. I do not have the option of acquiring another and besides, I am not comfortable with it so I choose not to. If he can not brumate naturally on his own, I choose not to do it. The only downside to not brumating that I have found is issues with breeding. Having no intent of ever breeding I doubt I will have issues. So until my vet says I have to do it. I choose not to and am not a horrid owner for making this choice. Nor is anyone else who chooses whatever option works for them. This debate is beginning to play like a broken record and I am done with it. Please respect my choice to not brumate.

 

[CactusVinnie]

This debate is beginning to play like a broken record and I am done with it. Please respect my choice to not brumate.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=38255#ixzz1iVnoYGDN

No problemo, amigo! But I just don't get it... was it such a pressure on you ? And, btw, some may even have something to extract from that broken record... and personally I respect even your choice to be disrespectful, even if you didn't participate, if that's what you want . Realmente no problemo!

 

[GBtortoises]

CactusVinnie-First, I have to agree with quote in the post above: "This debate is beginning to play like a broken record". Second, While you may be absolutely certain of the conditions of your climate (which is the natural range or extremely close to that of the species that you're keeping), I doubt that you are familiar with the many micro-climates of the U.S. as well. Given that it would be hard to insist that natural brumation is absolutely possible everywhere here.

And to clarify my "radically different affirmations" it is simply a case of me typing my thoughts quicker than I was thinking them through-happens often. What I meant by what I said was that neither my year round active or brumating tortoises show any difference in fertility. But my brumating tortoises do mate on a more scheduled timeline based on seasonal changes whereas those that are active year round nest more randomly. If you actually read the entire post the way it was written I already wrote that intended meaning:
"The only difference that I have ever observed is breeding consistency. Those that are hibernated have a more "scheduled" breeding period. Fertility is the same between the two as well as everything else."
It was a case of me using an unintended word. I can understand that it may be confusing, but I have re-affirmed the above, correct quote several times over in other posts.

 

[CactusVinnie]

No, GB, I don't agree with the "broken record". Why? Because it is still- and it always be- something new to find! For instance, finding about your clarification- it was needed, since a serious contradiction would have resulted if not clearly shown here the real sense of your words.

Second: I am quite familiar with the US climates, of course not in microclimate detail. I was a real cacti and fish freak, and studying weather data was one of my interests. It was enough to study Albuquerque microclimates, and it was mind-blowing: three USDA zones for a single city, depending on particular locations!! But that's not the point, since I was never advocating natural brumation no matter the area- just brumation as a part of the natural cycle.
In fact, you know that neither myself, I don't let them brumate naturally, just let them go underground, then bringing them in controlled conditions (underground hydrophore concrete chamber). The most important reason- but not the only one- were the rodents we talked about.
And, as you said about taking great care of the few tortoises we have- you skip brumation to be on the safe side, but neither me let things happen as in the wild for the same reason: regardless if living close to tortoise habitat or in the US, tortoise are not so expendable to take any chances with them.
Only our views on brumation differ, but the care and responsability we feel are the same. I respect those ancient beasts. If you will have a wide look on their ENTIRE areal, you may find something very interesting- let me know when you will find what I mean !
In fact, I do have a much greater responsability then you: I live where they live, and I have to work hard for them. The only help I will get in my shy conservation efforts is to became a legal keeper (since I am not yet now, and there is none here!)- a fellow biologist working in the field will facilitate this thing for me. I won't sell a single baby, they will all go back to Dobrogea. Nobody helped me, even with a bag of weeds, not to mention something else- and nobody will. It's 100% benevol work, time-consuming, when having 3 kids, 300 USD monthly revenue and expensive life, and it's Romania out here- a bloody jungle.
Please note that it is not a joke for me. I am not "rescueing" another one from the wild when one dies. So, I take very seriously tortoise keeping, since it's much more than a hobby, and not even a bit of material reward.

 

[Tccarolina]

Among all us "lurkers" in this debate, I have found it helpful. Yes, these debates get "broken-recordish", but there are still nuggets of info that occur even in the last pages of posts. I suspect that even when animosity rises, the active participants are still secretly building respect for the other side's level of commitment to be responsible and dedicated keepers.

The worst result I think of these long debates is if it results in an active member getting fed-up with the forum, and leaving. So, for all participants, I have valued this exchange, and I have deeper respect for all of the debaters as a result.

For the record, I currently hibernate naturally outdoors for space reasons and to give me a winter break, but my future chelonian keeping is very flexible, and all this info goes into my future decision making.

I think, maybe, it is the highly opinionated individuals who are the ones who are actively changing our hobby for the better, and I mean that as a compliment to both sides here.

If this post seems unnecessary, patronizing, or pointless, it's also my 300th post! WooHoo! ! !

 

[ascott]

Unnecessary, patronizing, pointless---none of these descriptives apply to your post....not in my opinion anyways

Happy 300th [/code]

 

[Jacqui]

Can't use the fridge. I use it for food. I do not have the option of acquiring another and besides, I am not comfortable with it so I choose not to. If he can not brumate naturally on his own, I choose not to do it. The only downside to not brumating that I have found is issues with breeding. Having no intent of ever breeding I doubt I will have issues. So until my vet says I have to do it. I choose not to and am not a horrid owner for making this choice. Nor is anyone else who chooses whatever option works for them. This debate is beginning to play like a broken record and I am done with it. Please respect my choice to not brumate.

You have the right to choose not to hibernate or brumate your tortoises and should never be made to feel less of a keeper to do so. The key to me, is YOUR NOT COMFORTABLE with doing it. So you should not do it. You would be less of a keeper to me, if you were to do something your not comfortable with or sure of.

 

[carnivorouszoo]

This debate is beginning to play like a broken record and I am done with it. Please respect my choice to not brumate.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=38255#ixzz1iVnoYGDN

No problemo, amigo! But I just don't get it... was it such a pressure on you ? And, btw, some may even have something to extract from that broken record... and personally I respect even your choice to be disrespectful, even if you didn't participate, if that's what you want . Realmente no problemo!

I do not see how I was disrespectful, simply asked for respect. Why push your beliefs on someone else? Brumation is a choice in captivity. Other than the implication that I somehow disrespected you, or anyone else, I'm afraid I don't understand the rest of your post. Sorry.

To the poster above me, many thanks. Its one thing to know what you are doing and/or have an experienced person to help you, but to risk the lives that depend on you because someone somewhere says you are bad if you don't is reckless. There is no one near me that brumate their reptiles of any kind. I have asked my vet and they do not recommend it in captivity because of 1) the climate and risk of power outages and 2)the lack of in depth, reliable studies on the pros and cons of doing it. His words not mine. My RT is still very active, healthy and happy. My Bearded Dragon had a short siesta this winter, but they are easier to let sleep than a tort who requires lower temps. With a beardie, I simply had to leave the lights off while keeping the temp a bit over 60. Its way more involved for a tort. With noone to be here in person helping me, I'd rather have an awake tort than a dead one.

 

[jamestaylor18]

I hibernate my horsefields using the fridge method. They are on their second year now! I find from October the hardly come out anyway despite temps, lighting etc therefore I might as well hibernate them!