Is my leopard beginning to pyramid?

[Tortus]

When I first came to this forum I remember seeing a thread similar to this one, but it's been so long I can't find it.

Anyway, the scute closest to its butt seems to be raised more than the others now as well as a couple more on the spine area. The rest of the scutes are almost "anti-pyramided". There is no sign of raising.

The humidity has never gone below 55%. It's usually around 80% when the lights are off. The humidity in my house is around 65% since I have fish aquariums, but apparently the heat sources in the tort enclosure lower it a bit when they're on.

The diet has been spring mix, mustard or collard greens, well-soaked Mazuri, and recently sliced cactus pads. I keep the substrate moist and there's always water available. I soak 20-30 minutes daily. She'll be 3 months old on the 15th of November.

I'm not sure if this is pyramiding or normal growth for a 2+ month old leopard. It's making me paranoid and considering building a closed chamber. Not sure if that's necessary considering my house is humid anyway.

 

[Greg T]

There will usually be some slight differences between the scutes as they grow, especially when young. This isn't bad and not really pyramiding. Your housing and feeding are fine so keep it going. He looks great!

 

[jtrux]

The scutes running down the center of the carapace do appear to be slightly raised and the growth rings appear to raise up gradually in each consecutive ring. Imo it looks like the beginning of pyramiding. I started a thread earlier where we discussed whether or not pyramiding was more common in Leopards and there was also some debate as to whether or not it was more common within certain individuals. Maybe someone with more experience will chime in.

 

[Tortus]

I will say if you look at it straight on, it looks perfectly smooth. But this angle really shows what I'm talking about. At only 2 1/2 months old, how many growth rings can it have?

I'd love the tort if it comes out pyramided or smooth, but since it's so young I'd like to get it on the smooth side.

 

[Neal]

There is some pyramiding happening, but it isn't bad. The fifth vertebral scute usually bulges out a bit on leopard tortoises, so that's normal.

How often do you soak the tortoise? Does he have a water dish?

---

I will say if you look at it straight on, it looks perfectly smooth. But this angle really shows what I'm talking about. At only 2 1/2 months old, how many growth rings can it have?

I'd love the tort if it comes out pyramided or smooth, but since it's so young I'd like to get it on the smooth side.

The number of growth rings depends on how fast (or slow) the tortoise is growing. Age doesn't really matter.

 

[Tom]

The scutes running down the center of the carapace do appear to be slightly raised and the growth rings appear to raise up gradually in each consecutive ring. Imo it looks like the beginning of pyramiding. I started a thread earlier where we discussed whether or not pyramiding was more common in Leopards and there was also some debate as to whether or not it was more common within certain individuals.

I agree with your assessment.

Tortus, Leopards are very prone to pyramiding and we are still working on all the exact hows and whys and the best way to prevent it. Several people have now had success raising smooth ones with a variety of techniques. There are many pieces to this puzzle. We now have quite a few of them, but some are still not found yet.

I have my opinions and experiences about what I would do in your case. I'm happy to share what I have learned, and I know others are too. Just ask. The hard part for you will be choosing a course of action based on all the differing advice and techniques. If you choose to keep doing what you've been doing, your tortoise will continue to pyramid at the same rate. Something to consider: It is MUCH harder to stop pyramiding in progress than it is to prevent it in the first place. Yours would now have to be considered "in progress". Not trying to be discouraging, just trying to give you and honest assessment.

 

[Tortus]

Maybe it's growing too fast? I've only had it for a couple months and it's already outgrown the soaking dish. It can now hoist itself up and nearly climb out of it. I've also had to redesign the enclosure since it was getting itself stuck here and there.

I know Neal said most of his grew up in low humidity, but he kept them well hydrated. Mine has never been in what I'd call "low" humidity, and I've soaked it daily and tried to keep it internally hydrated. I never let the food dry out and the way the Mazuri swells with water it seems like it would get a lot through that.

I was thinking about getting a fire blanket (something that won't burn) and using that to cover the lights and the rest of the enclosure that is left open. As of now it's half open, but I have lamp stands so I can't cover the other half. If I had that sort of blanket I could put it over the lamp stands and lights, holding in more humidity.

But it has never been kept in desert conditions. I think it's been getting the proper heat and nutrition.

 

[Neal]

Interesting case as it appears you have the humidity very high and are keeping him well hydrated. As Tom said, there may be other pieces to the pyramiding puzzle that we haven't exactly put together.

Just curious, can you detail your calcium and mineral supplement regimen?

 

[Tortus]

Yes I've been giving it calcium with D3 every other day. I don't have an exact measurement. I just sprinkle a light layer on top of the food. Could it be getting too much calcium?

I have other pics I took this morning where it doesn't look pyramided. But that pic at that angle is the worst one I took so that's the one I posted. I do see where the growth rings are raising in that pic.

---

Also, the growth rings on most of the scutes appear to be slightly raised, but the scutes themselves are almost sunken in or concave. You can see that on the side scutes in the pic.

This is making me wonder if it's normal growth that will smooth out or true pyramiding. It's only recently started getting the white growth marking between the scutes.

---

This also brings me to what GB called "accelerated growth". The lights have only been on for 11 hours a day since my timer hasn't worked right. I've been turning the lights on when I get home from work, and off when I go in. Could it be sleeping for too long, thus growing more rapidly?

I ordered a new timer and will keep it more consistent.

---

Here's one I took with flash, and maybe you can better see what I'm talking about.

The black 'rings' around the scutes are actually higher than the scutes themselves. It's always been like this to an extent, since I got it at 3+ weeks of age. I don't know if this is genetics, something due to husbandry, or if it's something that will smooth out in time.

 

[Neal]

It will always have that sunken in appearance but it won't be as noticeable as the tortoise grows larger. I've seen this a few times, and I've always referred to it as reverse pyramiding. I've asked three well respected DVM's in my area that deal a lot with tortoises, and they all lean towards it being something that occurs during the incubation process or shortly thereafter and is probably related to humidity. Whether lack of or too much, I couldn't figure out conclusively. They also indicated it could be something genetic. Those opinions were mostly just speculation.

I don't know if we can completely rule out fast growth as contributing to the actual pyramiding, but from what we have seen a lot here on the forum, it doesn't seem to be a contributing factor to pyramiding.

Do you have a humid hide? Is it filled with moss or anything like that, or is it just an open?

 

[Tortus]

I have the hide on the heat mat area with a thermostat, but it doesn't go in it. It prefers to sleep under some driftwood I put in there and sort of nestles down into the substrate that's a little moist.

Maybe I should remove everything but the hide? I'm hoping it's not too late to stop what little pyramiding is going on. It's not very noticeable yet but I know it's just the beginning.

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

It is slight pyramiding, and it will become less and less pronounced as the tortoise grows as long as the pyramiding doesn't continue. In my opinion fast growth doesn't create pyramiding, but will enhance it tremendously if not kept in optimum conditions. I don't think genetics is the cause of pyramiding either, but I could never disprove that theory.

 

[Tortus]

Well I've decided to take the wood out of the enclosure since it only likes to hide in that. I then need to find a large rectangular container to make a larger humid hide that will cover the entire heat mat area. I looked at a plastic baking pan this morning but it's too shallow. Any ideas where to get something like that? Maybe in the garden section of Home Depot?

I figure then it will be forced to use the hide since there will be nothing else to hide under. I feel kind of bad doing that but it's only temporary. I probably should have done that to begin with.

If any of you guys and gals have better suggestions please let me know. I'll keep posting monthly pics in my update thread to see there are any changes.

 

[Tortus]

I have my opinions and experiences about what I would do in your case. I'm happy to share what I have learned, and I know others are too. Just ask.

So, what exactly would you do in my case? To the naked eye it seems very minute and hardly noticeable right now, but as you can see in the pic something appears to be happening.

I've read your threads about closed chambers and humid hides. But it was after I had already set up shop. I've had a humid hide but it won't use it. I put it in there a few times and turned the light off. I looked back in later and it was out sleeping somewhere else. When it has its mind set on sleeping somewhere, that's where it goes. It sort of homes back in on the spot where it was resting before I moved it. Even in the dark.

Outside the hide the humidity has never been very low, especially at night. That's why I wasn't too concerned about it not using the hide. But...I guess I should have been if that's the cause.

Before I came here I thought pyramiding was normal for leopards. So if it ends up with a little it's not the end of the world for me. I'd just prefer if it didn't end up looking like the Swiss Alps.

 

[Neal]

For a humid hide, just use a small plastic shoe box. Flip it upside down and cut a small hole in the side so it can get in and out and fill it with some moist sphagnum moss.

 

[Tortus]

Aren't most shoe boxes cardboard? I'm not sure what a plastic shoe box is but I will look it up. Thanks.

I have a plastic planter or something in there that I found in the garage. It's square, about 8" x 8", and maybe 5" tall. It doesn't like it. But I think if I remove everything else it will go in a hide. I just don't want to stress it out by removing everything since it seems to like the layout right now and has several lounging spots. But I'll do what I have to do.

 

[Neal]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-31227-page-2.html#axzz2AzRqThEH

Look at post #20. This is what I use.

 

[Tortus]

Ok, I remember seeing that pic now.

Since it's clear do they ever get confused on where the opening is? I was thinking of using something black so it would be a more of a "hide", but if that works I'll try it.

It's really hard to find that size plastic container that isn't clear. I was looking at the grocery store this morning and everything I thought I could use was clear. I almost bought a purple Halloween candy bowl with spiders on it. lol

 

[Neal]

Yeah, you kind of have to hunt down the opaque tubs. Here's a good idea: http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...-spots-and-misc-decor/-/small-black-hide-box/

The price is low, but with shipping I think you're better off just using a clear plastic tub. I usually burry the tubs a bit in the substrate and fill them with moss, so I've never had any issues with the tortoise trying to crawl through the clear plastic sides.

 

[DesertGrandma]

Tortus, I use the plastic shoe boxes that Neal recommends and they have worked great for my babies. Using them upside down like this allows you to open the top to get them out. If you put a piece of slate on top and place it under your CHE it keeps it warm inside really nicely.