Is my red-eared slider an example of neoteny or natural size?

[Wayfarin]

Hello folks!

I've already mentioned our red-eared slider, Teresa, on many of my older posts before.
Most of these posts were regarding the husbandry of the species in general.

However, this time, I'm interested in posting a thread on the subject of Teresa herself.

I've noticed that many red-eared sliders, usually in the wild, have a somewhat robust appearance, with broad heads and small eyes. Their shells are often dark (almost black) and devoid of pattern.

Teresa, on the other hand, has an almost immature or "juvenile-looking" appearance.

In addition to her "froggy" eyes, somewhat bold shell pattern, and overall small size, her shell seems unusually wide, a characteristic of the almost circular-shaped juvenile individuals.

Supposedly, red-earered-eared sliders can grow to have a shell length of almost a foot long, but Teresa is still small, at a little less than 8" in shell (carapace) length.
She's over a decade old, possibly 16 years of age, and should be full grown (that is, if turtles ever stop growing).

She's been living in an undersized aquarium. Tank size doesn't determine a turtle's size, does it?

(These pictures may be misleading. The measurer wasn't aligned correctly, but her shell is about 7 and a half inches.)


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Before I start sounding like Teresa is a "freak" of an individual, I must mention that I've noticed that many captive sliders share Teresa's appearance, even when up to 20 years old.

Is this appearance in sliders an example of neoteny? That is, a sort of genetic stunting that can't be reversed?

I'm not worried much about her, since many sliders with her appearance live for a long time. I'm more curious about clearing up the whole matter.

Thanks! God bless!

 

[Wayfarin]

I posted the pictures again in case they didn't show up.

 

[wellington]

Tank size can stunt growth in tortoises along with causing other problems.
If she gets proper sized enclosure which is not going to be any premade aquarium, proper diet and light/heat, she should catch up to whatever size she is suppose to be
Keeping her in a tank you already know is too small is cruel!!
Get her in a proper sized enclosure.
Her shell pattern is likely due to being inside. Living in a pond with natural sun, etc, seems to darken them, besides they likely get dirtier being outside.

 

[zovick]

Hello folks!

I've already mentioned our red-eared slider, Teresa, on many of my older posts before.
Most of these posts were regarding the husbandry of the species in general.

However, this time, I'm interested in posting a thread on the subject of Teresa herself.

I've noticed that many red-eared sliders, usually in the wild, have a somewhat robust appearance, with broad heads and small eyes. Their shells are often dark (almost black) and devoid of pattern.

Teresa, on the other hand, has an almost immature or "juvenile-looking" appearance.

In addition to her "froggy" eyes, somewhat bold shell pattern, and overall small size, her shell seems unusually wide, a characteristic of the almost circular-shaped juvenile individuals.

Supposedly, red-earered-eared sliders can grow to have a shell length of almost a foot long, but Teresa is still small, at a little less than 8" in shell (carapace) length.
She's over a decade old, possibly 16 years of age, and should be full grown (that is, if turtles ever stop growing).

She's been living in an undersized aquarium. Tank size doesn't determine a turtle's size, does it?

(These pictures may be misleading. The measurer wasn't aligned correctly, but her shell is about 7 and a half inches.)


View attachment 361730

View attachment 361729 View attachment 361728 View attachment 361726 View attachment 361723 View attachment 361722 View attachment 361721 View attachment 361719 View attachment 361720 View attachment 361717 View attachment 361716 View attachment 361718

Before I start sounding like Teresa is a "freak" of an individual, I must mention that I've noticed that many captive sliders share Teresa's appearance, even when up to 20 years old.

Is this appearance in sliders an example of neoteny? That is, a sort of genetic stunting that can't be reversed?

I'm not worried much about her, since many sliders with her appearance live for a long time. I'm more curious about clearing up the whole matter.

Thanks! God bless!

To answer your question most simply, YES, the size of the tank can affect the size which the animal is able to attain. Undersized tanks will stunt growth, in turtles and fish alike.

 

[wellington]

To answer your question most simply, YES, the size of the tank can affect the size which the animal is able to attain. Undersized tanks will stunt growth, in turtles and fish alike.

I have not seen this in fish. I have sadly seen many fish that grew too big for the tank they were in. I believe it may slow growth in fish some but not stunt them to the point they don't outgrow the tank. It's an old myth.
Tortoise though, I have seen as I rescued one. Turtles I would figure would do the same but not 100%.
Either way though, a too small enclosure, even if it did or didn't stunt growth, is very unhealthy to the resident in other ways.

 

[TammyJ]

This is very interesting to me, because I personally have witnessed the definitely stunted growth of several Jamaican boas obviously due to being kept for all their years from birth until a few years ago, in tiny fish tanks. They were at last moved to larger enclosures, and since then they have grown quickly, to the extent that they would now have be stuffed into their original little tanks. But I do not think that they will ever achieve a normal adult size, which is around seven feet or more.

 

[wellington]

This is very interesting to me, because I personally have witnessed the definitely stunted growth of several Jamaican boas obviously due to being kept for all their years from birth until a few years ago, in tiny fish tanks. They were at last moved to larger enclosures, and since then they have grown quickly, to the extent that they would now have be stuffed into their original little tanks. But I do not think that they will ever achieve a normal adult size, which is around seven feet or more.

I wonder.
Most snakes I ever see, are kept in small cages, stacked on top of each other. They don't look big enough for the snake to fully extend to its full length.

 

[TammyJ]

I wonder.
Most snakes I ever see, are kept in small cages, stacked on top of each other. They don't look big enough for the snake to fully extend to its full length.

Yes. Breeders keep their snakes in small stacked tubs for their own convenience, and these snakes are adult size. But they have not been kept from birth in proportionately small tubs, like the baby snakes kept for years in the baby size tanks while they are growing to adulthood.

 

[jeff kushner]

Well W, you have a great looking little guy! He looks to be exactly as I would expect him to look...and he looks good.

I kept Red ears, yellow bellie, red bellie, razorbacks, maps etc for decades in several 50 & 55 gallon tanks. Yes, they can and do stunt growth but yours looks to be natural size. That's about as big as they get around here.

Red bellys can llok like a red ear from far away and THEY do get over a foot long. Red Ears, around 8" or so.....just my experience.

Your little guy's shell looks fantastic....love the muted patterns!

jeff

 

[TammyJ]

Well W, you have a great looking little guy! He looks to be exactly as I would expect him to look...and he looks good.

I kept Red ears, yellow bellie, red bellie, razorbacks, maps etc for decades in several 50 & 55 gallon tanks. Yes, they can and do stunt growth but yours looks to be natural size. That's about as big as they get around here.

Red bellys can llok like a red ear from far away and THEY do get over a foot long. Red Ears, around 8" or so.....just my experience.

Your little guy's shell looks fantastic....love the muted patterns!

jeff

I also think that Teresa looks quite healthy. I kept RES, map turtles and Jamaican pond turtles over many years too. But of course it's better for them to have plenty of space in their pools.

 

[wellington]

Well W, you have a great looking little guy! He looks to be exactly as I would expect him to look...and he looks good.

I kept Red ears, yellow bellie, red bellie, razorbacks, maps etc for decades in several 50 & 55 gallon tanks. Yes, they can and do stunt growth but yours looks to be natural size. That's about as big as they get around here.

Red bellys can llok like a red ear from far away and THEY do get over a foot long. Red Ears, around 8" or so.....just my experience.

Your little guy's shell looks fantastic....love the muted patterns!

jeff

The ones I have seen and one I rescued years ago that someone left on the stoop in front of a pet store was a lot bigger. I have no idea how old though and no idea if it was WC or CB.
I would think this one still has a lot of growing yet if given the space it needs.

 

[Wayfarin]

Tank size can stunt growth in tortoises along with causing other problems.
If she gets proper sized enclosure which is not going to be any premade aquarium, proper diet and light/heat, she should catch up to whatever size she is suppose to be
Keeping her in a tank you already know is too small is cruel!!
Get her in a proper sized enclosure.

You must not have been following my posts for a long time.
Almost every prior post on Teresa has been discussing the proper husbandry of red-eared sliders in outdoor ponds.

Suddenly changing her surroundings so drastically could have disastrous results if done carelessly, so despite my awareness of her being in an unsuitable setup, I'm not going to suddenly move her outdoors without research and an appropriate study of what I'm doing.

Part of me wonders, though, if she would even survive in an outdoor pond.

Our house is hardly big enough to accommodate anything over 100 gallons, should she stay inside.

The ones I have seen and one I rescued years ago that someone left on the stoop in front of a pet store was a lot bigger. I have no idea how old though and no idea if it was WC or CB.
I would think this one still has a lot of growing yet if given the space it needs.

How much more is a 16-year old turtle going to grow? Considering that she was already an adult when we got her, she's actually 18-19 years old, despite her almost immature appearance.

The turtles you've seen and rescued were almost certainly younger specimens, and quite possibly wild-caught animals.

 

[Wayfarin]

If she gets proper sized enclosure which is not going to be any premade aquarium, proper diet and light/heat, she should catch up to whatever size she is suppose to be

In northern New Hampshire, providing a red-eared slider with proper heat and proper housing is a challenge that's difficult to overcome.

While moving her outdoors would undoubtedly satisfy her housing requirements, her heating requirements would very likely be less fulfilled. In comparison to housing her indoors, where she can bask under warm lights and swim in warm water at all times, outdoor ponds are often at the mercy of the weather.

 

[wellington]

In northern New Hampshire, providing a red-eared slider with proper heat and proper housing is a challenge that's difficult to overcome.

While moving her outdoors would undoubtedly satisfy her housing requirements, her heating requirements would very likely be less fulfilled. In comparison to housing her indoors, where she can bask under warm lights and swim in warm water at all times, outdoor ponds are often at the mercy of the weather.

Yes true, so that's why if you get them, you need to provide for them or don't get them.

 

[wellington]

You must not have been following my posts for a long time.
Almost every prior post on Teresa has been discussing the proper husbandry of red-eared sliders in outdoor ponds.

Suddenly changing her surroundings so drastically could have disastrous results if done carelessly, so despite my awareness of her being in an unsuitable setup, I'm not going to suddenly move her outdoors without research and an appropriate study of what I'm doing.

Part of me wonders, though, if she would even survive in an outdoor pond.

Our house is hardly big enough to accommodate anything over 100 gallons, should she stay inside.


How much more is a 16-year old turtle going to grow? Considering that she was already an adult when we got her, she's actually 18-19 years old, despite her almost immature appearance.

The turtles you've seen and rescued were almost certainly younger specimens, and quite possibly wild-caught animals.

Of course it depends on where one lives and if you provide the appropriate pond so they can hibernate during winter like they would on their own in the wild. RES are a nuisance in a lot of areas, and now live in areas they shouldn't because people buy them, can't provide the space for them once they are full grown and so they let them go. I believe they are even banned in some states. They are one of the harder species of turtles to keep as they get very large for indoor aquariums.
You already have her, do the best you can.

 

[TammyJ]

She's your pet and you want to give her the best you possibly can, that is understood.

 

[Wayfarin]

Yes true, so that's why if you get them, you need to provide for them or don't get them.

"That red-eared slider is so cute! Let's get her! She can't be all that hard to care for. Everyone has one!"
We were among those suckers, and most people who possess them are, too.

We got her in Connecticut, not northern New Hampshire. We've had her for 15 years.

 

[Wayfarin]

Of course it depends on where one lives and if you provide the appropriate pond so they can hibernate during winter like they would on their own in the wild. RES are a nuisance in a lot of areas, and now live in areas they shouldn't because people buy them, can't provide the space for them once they are full grown and so they let them go. I believe they are even banned in some states. They are one of the harder species of turtles to keep as they get very large for indoor aquariums.
You already have her, do the best you can.

Temperature fluctuations exist throughout the year in northern New Hampshire.
With the exception of mid summer, the temperature can fluctuate from 70 degrees Fahrenheit during the day down to 50 degrees at night, at almost any time of the year.

After spending 15 years indoors, can she be expected to tolerate these temperature fluctuations?

I seriously don't want to rehome her, because rehomed red-eared sliders are overpopulating shelters, rescues, and almost every other business involved in keeping animals in captivity.
But if there are no other options, it may be the only way to provide her with a truly sufficient habitat.

 

[wellington]

What if you added another aquarium and added a bridge with sides over to it. Have to get a bit crafty maybe. Heck you could even add another aquarium that was all sand/grass, three attached together by bridges.
You could always try to find someone in your area that has a pond and wouldn't mind taking her.
If you have a big enough space, you could build a simple pond in a room. Just be sure to use actual pond liner so it's sturdy against toe nails. Four long and wide deck boards attached together and pond liner attached to them.
Do the biggest and best you can. Think outside the box.

 

[Wayfarin]

What if you added another aquarium and added a bridge with sides over to it. Have to get a bit crafty maybe. Heck you could even add another aquarium that was all sand/grass, three attached together by bridges.

That is certainly a unique and uncommon idea.

You could always try to find someone in your area that has a pond and wouldn't mind taking her.
If you have a big enough space, you could build a simple pond in a room. Just be sure to use actual pond liner so it's sturdy against toe nails. Four long and wide deck boards attached together and pond liner attached to them.
Do the biggest and best you can. Think outside the box.

I don't believe anyone else in our small town has a backyard pond.
We would probably be the first people here to build a backyard pond, if we eventually decide to house her outdoors.
We are unlikely to have enough space to give her a pond in any room, except possibly for the basement.
But the basement is cold and dark.

I'm still thinking about the outdoor pond idea. The south-facing side of our house is very warm even now in the month of October.

At night, of course, it can be as cold as 50 or even 40 degrees Fahrenheit, but during the day it can warm up to 80 or 90 (or even 100) degrees, especially on concrete under full sun exposure.
A concrete brick pond should hold a lot of heat if placed by a south-facing patio.