Is there any pure pardalis pardalis leopard tortoise still exist in US!?

kazjimmy

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I have leopard(G.BP) and sulcata tortoise for 15 years.

Recently I got these two little said to be SPP baby’s. The breeder could not remember her original adult breeder group owners name. I’m assuming its from Wanda.

Sadly here in USA there were no more true SPP. IMG_0829.jpgIMG_0839.jpgIMG_0830.jpg
 

kazjimmy

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Yes, there are. I have several pure pardalis pardalis from three different breeders here in the U.S.

How to tell? Some body claim that they have pure adult here is the pictures of baby below ask $300 eachIMG_0853.jpg

Here is a pictures from pet show last month
IMG_0854.jpg ask $300-$500

Would these hypo tortoise confuse most of the SPP hobbyist?

Are we gonna find out after they grow bigger beyond 22 inch size?
 

Tom

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There are absolutely people still breeding true SA leopards that have not been mixed with regular leopards. I'm one of them and a good friend of mine is another. There are plenty of people making mixes, to be sure, but there are still pure ones out there.

How to tell? This can be difficult. Mine came directly from the source who still has the import paperwork form 1990. So did my friend's breeding stock. Outside of that, you have to trust the word of the seller.

The scientists did away with any subspecific designations years ago, so I now call them South African Leopards instead of Gpp or Spp. There is now only one species, but they acknowledge 11 "clades" that occur within the huge range of this single species.
 

Tom

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11 clades? Please explain more
The paper that re-defined this species and consolidated everything into one single species with no recognized subspecies acknowledged 11 distinct clades within the huge range that each had distinct observable morphological differences. Our SA leopards here in this country would be from one of those clades, and the regular leopards that have been mixed with each other for so many years here are most likely mixed from several of these clades.
 

diamondbp

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Are those pictures from a breeder in Texas? They look like similar photos to a breeder I've seen in Texas
 

Yvonne G

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The paper that re-defined this species and consolidated everything into one single species with no recognized subspecies acknowledged 11 distinct clades within the huge range that each had distinct observable morphological differences. Our SA leopards here in this country would be from one of those clades, and the regular leopards that have been mixed with each other for so many years here are most likely mixed from several of these clades.
@Tom - I think he wants you to tell what "clades" means
 

Maro2Bear

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I was wondering too..

A clade, also known as monophyletic group, is a group of organisms that consists of a common ancestor and all its lineal descendants, and represents a single "branch" on the "tree of life". The common ancestor may be an individual, a population, a species, and so on right up to a kingdom and further. Wikipedia

Also

Clades within clades

A clade (also known as a monophyletic group) is a group of organisms that includes a single ancestor and all of its descendents. Clades represent unbroken lines of evolutionary descent. It's easy to identify a clade using a phylogenetic tree. Just imagine clipping any single branch off the tree. All the lineages on that branch form a clade. If you have to make more than one cut to separate a group of organisms from the rest of the tree, that group does not form a clade. Such non-clade groups are called either polyphyletic or paraphyletic groups depending on which taxa they include.
Source: https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evotrees_primer_05


And, in visual format:

895C4BAB-CE63-4E2D-807F-5B3B487D1F9D.jpeg
 

Tom

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@Tom - I think he wants you to tell what "clades" means
Ahh. I think @Will would be much better at a definition than me, but I'll take a stab at explain my understanding of the term.

Clade = A group of morphologically similar animals from a specific locale within that species' range.

In practice, our SA leopards would be representative of one of those clades, and the Ethiopian variety of leopards would be from a different clade from a different part of the range.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2010a.pdf

These authors reference (Bell 1828), but that is not in their Bib, I learned that is a NoNo, but maybe it is okay.

So, to Loveridge 1935 and Loveridge and Williams 1957, to see what criteria they used to separate out the one from the other. If the breeders meet that criteria, then they are what is S.p.p. by those authors.

https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/2829062#page/5/mode/1up
https://archive.org/details/biostor-871/page/n19

Clade is a word used to describe one group from another. http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2010a.pdf it has become jargon, in that it is used for different reasons at diffrernt scales of size with taxonomy. It is for inclusion or exclusion based on the triat of interest.
 

kazjimmy

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Are those pictures from a breeder in Texas? They look like similar photos to a breeder I've seen in Texas

By no mean these leopard were beautiful it’s Justin not what I’m looking for. I just use this picture as a compare.
 

diamondbp

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By no mean these leopard were beautiful it’s Justin not what I’m looking for. I just use this picture as a compare.
The babies in your original post do look pure. The only way to potentially verify that they are pure is if the breeder can provide you exact information on where the adults originate.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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n66_w510


This image from Sowerby and Lear is said by Loveridge and Williams to be THE type specimen that Bell used to suggest these are S. p.p. and the other are S.p.b.

n7_w532


Read the diagnosis.

Now you know what is a true S.p.p. from an S.p.b. based on that taxonomic use of the time.

But as Fritz has pointed out shape and size are not uniform per genetic haplotype.

So what you all are calling True Sp.p. are just a group selected for by traits you like. That makes them a breed like a dog breed.
vive la différence
.
 

kazjimmy

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n66_w510


This image from Sowerby and Lear is said by Loveridge and Williams to be THE type specimen that Bell used to suggest these are S. p.p. and the other are S.p.b.

n7_w532


Read the diagnosis.

Now you know what is a true S.p.p. from an S.p.b. based on that taxonomic use of the time.

But as Fritz has pointed out shape and size are not uniform per genetic haplotype.

So what you all are calling True Sp.p. are just a group selected for by traits you like. That makes them a breed like a dog breed.
vive la différence
.

Can we conclude they are in fact the same specie but just a area difference make them grow different?
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Can we conclude they are in fact the same specie but just a area difference make them grow different?
I think so. It is what scientists who know more about this kind of chelonian study, than I, have determined. There is much variation even within a stable single geographic variant, phenotype.
 
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