I've found a problem

[Sobolco]

The problem is in my leopard group. They were in the middle of wintering and things were going normal, not eating very much but still bouncing around a bit and getting pretty active during soaks and rain chamber outtings. Than all of the sudden my yearling droped dead. I knew it was not eating very much and it did the same thing last winter. So I am pretty alarmed, going over every thing I can to figure out whats going on with it and keeping a very close eye on the 3 babys that I have. Now, I've ruled out husbandry, they live on an 11 by 4 foot table with plenty of lights and all cypress. One of the babys is going down the ropes pretty fast too, its not eating and its shell is not firming up like all the others. Sometimes its one eye wont open, I am pretty sure its not going to make it. Yet, the other two have rock hard shells and are active enough to keep up with my kids.
Most of my tortoise diet is of freash spring mix, the odd bit of calcium and in the summer they get a bit better diet. Is there something I am missing? I need a bit of help here.

 

[Turtlechasers]

Hi Adam
You need to take a trip to the vet, with the sick one... While at the vet ask about the one that has died... Necropsy may help...
For the others... PLEASE check their temperature should be 95-100 on the basking end and no lower than 80 on the cool end. Feeding should resume... These young tortoises should not be dormant at this age...

 

[NudistApple]

What temperatures and humidity are you keeping them at? With one dead yearling and a failing young one, I don't think that you CAN safely rule out husbandry. For sure their diet should be much more varied, and you should probably be feeding a staple like ZooMed or Mazuri tortoise diet a few times a week...

 

[Sobolco]

ya I have been trying flukers tortoise food too but they dont seem to like it. I want to try mazuri. The entire room is 80 and the hot spots will vary all through out the table. My humidity dropped down to about 40 percent on air sample in the room but on the table is higher because I spray down the entire table with a big sprayer.

 

[wellington]

Separate the sick from the not sick. Get the sick to a vet. When they are healthy again follow the thread at the bottom of this post. Tom wrote them and he has healthy smooth babies. Good luck, hope they all get well and stay well.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Tortoises thermoregulate and if the whole room is an ambient temp of 80 degrees that means they can't cool off. The ambient temp should only be 80 degrees if one is sick, and in that case he should be removed and put into a separate hospital tank. In a normal colony the hot side should be 95 to 100 degrees and the cool side should be 70 to 75. You say you have one baby who is sick now, but you don't say how you have removed him from the colony and put into a hospital tank under treatment. What are you doing to make him better? Just acknowledging that he is sick does nothing. He should be in a small hospital tank receiving subq fluids and daily liquid Calcionate. He should be soaking in carrots and gavaged daily using a mash of Critical Care Avian and Carnivore. You say your husbandry is alright, but you don't tell us what your husbandry is...the temps of each side and what kind of light you are using. I just think there is a lot more involved in trying to cure a sick baby than just acknowledging that he is sick. I don't mean any disrespect, I just think there is more involved than just saying you have one dead and another about dead. What are you doing to make him better?

 

[wellington]

If you follow Tom's thread on raising leopards, the all over temp should not be lower than 80 and humidity not lower than 80. Basking 95-100. Please don't let temps get lower than 80 with the higher humidity and damp substrate. Cold damp babies get sick.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Tom is not the god of all tortoises. There are a lot of us here who raise Sulcata or Leopards and we have years of experience in these species, please don't go thinking Tom's word is the be all end all. I have respect for Tom and consider him a friend. But there are a lot of us who have more years of experience in tortoises than Tom does. I know you like Tom (as do I) but for you to push Tom as the god of everything chelonian is kind of irritating.
Tortoises need to have a reduction in body temp at night. While I agree cold and wet is bad for babies, my experience tells me that they need to cool off during the night and 70 to 75 is not too cold for them. It would be too cold for a sick baby and I wouldn't want a sick baby to cool off less than 80 degrees, but 70 is not too cool for a healthy baby. I wouldn't put a baby into the humid hide that Tom pushes at 70degrees, but a healthy baby to sleep in a normal damp tortoise table is alright

 

[wellington]

I am going to restate my opinion. IF you are keeping your leopard babies as Tom does in his thread below, do not let your babies temp get below 80. IF you are not keeping them like Tom, then your humidity is low and you can lower the temp to 75. Sorry Tom, I do ,like and respect you a lot but I do not believe you are a tortoise god and I know you do not think you are either, nor do you want anyone to think it.

 

[SulcataSquirt]

I have a cool humid hide and a warm humid hide, the warm one is 82 degrees, and the cool one is 72 degrees, my tort uses each equally, since iv had my tort, when he was a hatchling hes had a choice to use both, iv always kept it nice and damp in his enclosure spray daily. Iv followed toms care but never kept the whole enclosure at 80 degrees, if i put my temp gauge at the coolest spot in the cage it is 68 degrees which is the temp of my house most time. If i use my IR thermometer and check the dirt on the cool side it is 66 degrees. yeah my tort doesnt go their often but he does go their and has the choice. I beleive a tort that is overheating may not reconize 80 degrees as a cool retreat. so that is why i have mine set up this way, it may or may not be the right way but its what has worked for my tort, as sometimes when im not home the temps in the house may get messed with which can greatley effect the temp under my CHE and Basking bulb by up to 10 degrees, current set up with those temps are a 4x8 tort table. Now to go with my rambling a sick tort should be seperated and kept warm and hydrated, Maggie has given you great instructions and I would follow those to a T. Also as far as i know Tom is a very good keeper and has great care sheets to get people started out growing smooth healthy torts, from what i have read from Tom on this post is that he hasnt had may sick torts if any, For Maggie, and what i have read, She takes in 100s, prolly 1000s of sick torts by now and have nursed them back to tip top shape, She knows how to take care of a sick tort and what they need to get better. Yvonne has also given me a great deal of help along the way also. I know for a fact Tom has helped me raise a smooth tort, and when i ran into problems with my tort, Maggie was their telling me what to do, what i needed to buy, and how it was needing to be done. Thanks again guys. I just had to say this, SORRY FOR HIJACKIN THIS THREAD.

 

[Tom]

I consider both of you friends. No one on this forum thinks they or anyone else is a tortoise god or goddess. We are all just offering opinions to the Original Poster here, and the OP is free to take it or leave it.

I agree with Barb on the ambient temps. Back in my old dark days of keeping tortoise dry (back when EVERYONE recommended it, and before I knew it was WRONG) I used to let leopards and sulcatas drop to the low 70's at night. I would not do this with damp/humid conditions. I have not tested just how low they can go because I don't want to see any sick tortoises, but I know that 80 works and works well. At the start of this winter, I had a heating problem and my leopards spent one night at 68 degrees. They did not get sick, but their appetite did slow down for a couple of days even though temps were right back to normal after that one cold night. My reptile room also has an ambient of 80. Occasionally we will have a super cold night and the temp will get down to 75-76, but again, all the tortoises are much more sluggish after those nights, even though its only a few degrees different. My experience tells me that an ambient of 80 is just right for baby leopards and sulcatas. Others are free to disagree...

I don't think this problem has anything to do with temps though. It seems to me to be a UV/calcium thing. I see you, Adam, are up in Canada. This tells me that the weather severely limits your tortoises time in the sunshine. Your winter diet sounds less than optimal to me too. Soft shells in yearlings is almost always going to be due to lack of UV and or calcium. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

I am ruling out damage from being kept to dry as a hatchling, which we all know is so common, because these babies are older than one year. In most cases, the dry routine will kill them in 4-6 months. An occasional one will make it to 8 months before dying. More info could back this up. How old are they specifically ( a yearling could be anywhere from 12-24 months), and what do they weigh?

What are you doing for UV? What bulbs? How many? How far from the tortoises? That is a large indoor cage (which is awesome), but you will need a lot of UV lights to get enough to the tortoises in such a large space. Were the tortoises growing at some point? How are you measuring those temps? Appetite should not be dropping off if temps are still that warm.

A little more info will shed a little more light on this issue.

 

[Sobolco]

I think your rite Tom, 2 of the lights are uv bulbs, one is a 150 watt heat bulb and a 75 wat flood to lighten up the cool end. I want to try a merc vapour bulb, and I think this is boiling down to a diet issue in combination with there just not being enough uv rays.
Living in Canada, I need to be able to find some of these food items you guys are talking about. Or I am going to have to grow them. hopefully my vet can give me some insight.

 

[Sobolco]

I've increaced the hot spot to 115 and placed the one not eating under it with some greens. Within minuites he began to show interest and was nibbling. You guys need to understand, tho my vet is a great man and among some of the highest regarded in the world. I mean, the University of Guelph's programs are the most saught after in the entire country. I still need to present him with my ideas, and how I gather my thoughts is to ask a pannel of expert and non expert keepers, people who have had the chance to work with this animal for longer than I have. I bring him the insight and we together rule out and work to fix the problem. However, he can surprise me, he has in the past, but he is more the 'inner workings' of the animal and I am more the 'outer keepings' of the animal if you know what I mean. He may be an expert vet but surely you dont believe he has wrote the book on keeping tortoises in ontario do you? I find some people's responses a tad bit harsh on me and my credability of being a reptile keeper, please, I am a good keeper, I do have a good relationship with Dr Eushar, and I will do anything I need to to keep my animals alive as I have in the past.

 

[Tom]

What type of UV bulbs are you using Adam? I have not found any of the florescent types to give off adequate UV to be used as a sole source of UV. The coil type or cfl, can actually be damaging to their eyes. Mercury vapor bulbs are the best way to go in my opinion. Also, is your 150 watt heat bulb a regular daylight type bulb, or one of those infrared types. Sometimes any sort of "colored" bulb can make things look funny to them during the day. This might also explain some appetite loss.

 

[yagyujubei]

I had a problem last year with a couple of my leopards just stopped eating when they were about 60g.They hovered at that weight for almost 4 months, and I thought that there was a good chance that they wouldn't make it. They did, and they're all fine now.
Here's what I would do in your situation: Get mazuri, soften it and mix it with finely chopped spring mix about half and half. Do not let them get cooler than 80. I would make sure they are at least 90 during the day. Don't just feed them and walk away. Put them in front of the food. If they walk away, repeat. I usually could get mine to take a bite or two after several tries. Repeat this throughout the day. Try romaine or even iceberg mixed with the mazuri, whatever they might like. The point is to get them to eat, and it has to be nutritious. At this point, I would consider them all sick, and make sure that they all are eating.I had good results with feeding oatmeal(rolled oats and warm water)in addition to the mazuri mix.Put them several times a day in a saucer of warm water, and them right in front of the food again. Be persistant. Make sure everything you feed them is easy to eat.Chop it up into easily eaten bite sized pieces.Try some alfalfa sprouts (another favorite)I think a lot of these younger animals stop eating for a variety of reasons, and actually end up dying of starvation rather than whatever it was that started the process. Good luck to you,but if you cannot get them to start eating NOW, things will end badly.

 

[Sobolco]

Tom, I have 2 of the coil types , I think they are the exo or something, one was a 5 and the other was a 10 I believe, and the 150 is making a red light, if you think it will affect them I will change it out, I had not thought of that. My air sample after over an hour is 75.9 percent on the cage floor. The cool end is around 75 degrees, the hot spot is 115, and the ambiant is a constant 80. I have been placing them in the hot spot, than the soak dish, and when they get active enough, I put them in a bin with the food in it all covered in calcium. They all are nibbling but the slow one looks like he is more concerned with eating the calcium off the bin floor. When they slow down or want out, I repeat. I am glad I am home this morning. Dennis, I was finding chopping up the food should help but I have not done that in the past. My yearling just ripped his way through anything like a savage, it sucks , I miss him dearly.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Tom, I have 2 of the coil types , I think they are the exo or something, one was a 5 and the other was a 10 I believe, and the 150 is making a red light, if you think it will affect them I will change it out, I had not thought of that. My air sample after over an hour is 75.9 percent on the cage floor. The cool end is around 75 degrees, the hot spot is 115, and the ambiant is a constant 80. I have been placing them in the hot spot, than the soak dish, and when they get active enough, I put them in a bin with the food in it all covered in calcium. They all are nibbling but the slow one looks like he is more concerned with eating the calcium off the bin floor. When they slow down or want out, I repeat. I am glad I am home this morning. Dennis, I was finding chopping up the food should help but I have not done that in the past. My yearling just ripped his way through anything like a savage, it sucks , I miss him dearly.

Please get rid of the coil bulbs as they cause trouble. I too would believe that all your colony should be considered sick by now. Can you get some liquid Calcionate from your Vet? That would be good. I am going to agree that if we are going to consider your whole colony sick a cool side of 80 would be the best temp ...

 

[Laura]

do you house them all together? are there all different ages? What kind of space do they have? large area? Small? are there dominant ones that eat all the food and bully the others? do you have hides? what about soaking?

 

[Sobolco]

They are basking rite now, I will get some mv bulbs for them. I have not seen a bully tortoise, only read about them.

 

[Sobolco]

I just watched them all eat this morning, things are looking up for me!!! Thanks for the help gang!