Jacques' mystery ailment

[Moozillion]

Oh Bea. I am really so very sorry. I do hope that a miracle occurs and all the love and care you have been giving her will miraculously heal her.

Thank you, Carol.

 

[RosemaryDW]

Oh my goodness, I had no idea.

What a long ordeal for both of you. I hope she gets better or at least has a long time with you yet.

 

[Moozillion]

Oh my goodness, I had no idea.

What a long ordeal for both of you. I hope she gets better or at least has a long time with you yet.

Thank you, RosemaryDW [emoji2][emoji173]️

 

[Lyn W]

Poor Jacques, she is such a fighter and you too have brilliant in also fighting for her, Bea.
Swelling also occurs when there is an allergic reaction (at least in humans so I assume other animals would be the same) but I don't suppose there's anyway of ruling out exactly what could be causing that and I don't suppose there's much in her environment that she could be allergic to.
I am so sorry they haven't been able to solve the mystery to help Jacques but still hoping for the best for her.

 

[Moozillion]

Poor Jacques, she is such a fighter and you too have brilliant in also fighting for her, Bea.
Swelling also occurs when there is an allergic reaction (at least in humans so I assume other animals would be the same) but I don't suppose there's anyway of ruling out exactly what could be causing that and I don't suppose there's much in her environment that she could be allergic to.
I am so sorry they haven't been able to solve the mystery to help Jacques but still hoping for the best for her.

Thank you, Lyn.[emoji2][emoji173]️

 

[nandusnandus]

The generalized swelling may simply be anasarca. Anasarca is a re-distribution of fluid in the tissue as a result of various significant illnesses. It sounds as though the liver and kidney function were normal, at least when last checked. Failure of these organs is a common cause of anasarca. Additionally, I can only assume that a stool sample was evaluated for gastrointestinal parasites, another cause of protein wasting and significant illness with potential to cause anasarca. With these more-or-less ruled-out, I give real credence to Mark1's comments. I think he is barking up the right tree. I believe there is a relatively high likelihood that this can be reversed with supplemental feeding, using some high-quality, protein-rich food. It sounds as though this will be more easily said than done, though, with his decreased feeding response. Given his weakened state, you may not have much trouble passing a tube through his mouth, into his stomach and tube feeding him every other day for a couple of weeks (assuming he continues not to feed well on his own). Alternatively, if he is feisty-enough, simply stimulating a strike/bite response and getting him to clamp down on a lightly vitamin-enriched/dusted, high-protein food item like a night crawler, may do the trick. Once they have the item in their mouth, especially if deeper in the oropharynx (way in the back of the mouth), they will often complete the process and swallow on their own.

A single anecdote proves nothing. Nevertheless, I will note that I received an ornate box turtle last year which had the same generalized swelling, weakness, and inability to withdraw legs into the shell. (She had that same look of being too fat to fit into her shell.) She was neglected prior to being acquired by me. Now, the swelling is gone, vigor has returned and she competes strongly with her enclosure mates. She actually cleared-up enough that I let her hibernate this winter. She looks and acts like a champ, these days. So, not all is necessarily lost with Jaq.

 

[vladimir]

@Moozillion thinking of you and Jacques

 

[Moozillion]

The generalized swelling may simply be anasarca. Anasarca is a re-distribution of fluid in the tissue as a result of various significant illnesses. It sounds as though the liver and kidney function were normal, at least when last checked. Failure of these organs is a common cause of anasarca. Additionally, I can only assume that a stool sample was evaluated for gastrointestinal parasites, another cause of protein wasting and significant illness with potential to cause anasarca. With these more-or-less ruled-out, I give real credence to Mark1's comments. I think he is barking up the right tree. I believe there is a relatively high likelihood that this can be reversed with supplemental feeding, using some high-quality, protein-rich food. It sounds as though this will be more easily said than done, though, with his decreased feeding response. Given his weakened state, you may not have much trouble passing a tube through his mouth, into his stomach and tube feeding him every other day for a couple of weeks (assuming he continues not to feed well on his own). Alternatively, if he is feisty-enough, simply stimulating a strike/bite response and getting him to clamp down on a lightly vitamin-enriched/dusted, high-protein food item like a night crawler, may do the trick. Once they have the item in their mouth, especially if deeper in the oropharynx (way in the back of the mouth), they will often complete the process and swallow on their own.

A single anecdote proves nothing. Nevertheless, I will note that I received an ornate box turtle last year which had the same generalized swelling, weakness, and inability to withdraw legs into the shell. (She had that same look of being too fat to fit into her shell.) She was neglected prior to being acquired by me. Now, the swelling is gone, vigor has returned and she competes strongly with her enclosure mates. She actually cleared-up enough that I let her hibernate this winter. She looks and acts like a champ, these days. So, not all is necessarily lost with Jaq.

Thanks so much, nandusnandus! What did you do for your ornate box turtle to get her over that?

 

[Moozillion]

@Moozillion thinking of you and Jacques

Thanks so much, vladimir!

 

[TammyJ]

Good going Bea, and all the best to Jacques for her recovery. She has a wonderful person as her caregiver and owner!

 

[nandusnandus]

Thanks so much, nandusnandus! What did you do for your ornate box turtle to get her over that?

In different situations, I've done as I described in my post, whatever it takes to get the nutrients or meds into the gut. The ornate box turtle still had a weak feeding response, but enough to get the job done. For a desert tortoise that requires meds, I administer the meds as described using a red rubber tube that I use as an orogastric tube placed momentarily for each dosing. Placing and using an orogastric tube has its challenges. If I were you and the turtle will neither feed voluntarily or defensively strike when antagonized, which would give you the chance to place the intended food items in the path of the strike, I would manually extend the neck and open the beak to insert the items. Have you tried any of this, yet?

 

[Moozillion]

In different situations, I've done as I described in my post, whatever it takes to get the nutrients or meds into the gut. The ornate box turtle still had a weak feeding response, but enough to get the job done. For a desert tortoise that requires meds, I administer the meds as described using a red rubber tube that I use as an orogastric tube placed momentarily for each dosing. Placing and using an orogastric tube has its challenges. If I were you and the turtle will neither feed voluntarily or defensively strike when antagonized, which would give you the chance to place the intended food items in the path of the strike, I would manually extend the neck and open the beak to insert the items. Have you tried any of this, yet?

I have not.
It is very difficult for me to manipulate small objects (and a 4" long mud turtle with an even smaller mouth is a small object) with confidence due to having a congenital hand tremor, arthritis in both hands and having had surgery on my dominant hand.
Hubby is not an option.
In order to get her fed, we would bring her to our exotic vet for tube feeding, which I have done in the past.
There are other issues as well, and will be bringing her to the vet this week. So I might leave her for boarding and tube feeding for a week.

 

[KarenSoCal]

I have not.
It is very difficult for me to manipulate small objects (and a 4" long mud turtle with an even smaller mouth is a small object) with confidence due to having a congenital hand tremor, arthritis in both hands and having had surgery on my dominant hand.
Hubby is not an option.
In order to get her fed, we would bring her to our exotic vet for tube feeding, which I have done in the past.
There are other issues as well, and will be bringing her to the vet this week. So I might leave her for boarding and tube feeding for a week.

Make sure to let us know how the vet visit goes! Praying for her! [emoji120]

 

[nandusnandus]

Like much of what I say, there is definitely an "easier said than done" component. Having good eyesight, dexterity, and plenty of (non-vet) training gives me an advantage in this arena. Perhaps, a brief stint of feeding at the vet with mineral/vitamin supplementation will be enough to get him turned-around enough to resume spontaneous feeds and do the rest on his own. I think there are a couple of reasonable options. One is for them to insert an esophagogastric tube through the side of the neck and leave it in place, secured to the carapace. Depending upon your limitations, you might be able to use that at home, yourself. The other would be just placing the tube orally for a few seconds each time it's needed. Of course, that would require him to be at the vet for some length of time or multiple visits, assuming your vet is even comfortable with this.

 

[TammyJ]

Watching and hoping! I know you will keep us up to date. Jacques has a mighty strong fan club here!

 

[Moozillion]

Like much of what I say, there is definitely an "easier said than done" component. Having good eyesight, dexterity, and plenty of (non-vet) training gives me an advantage in this arena. Perhaps, a brief stint of feeding at the vet with mineral/vitamin supplementation will be enough to get him turned-around enough to resume spontaneous feeds and do the rest on his own. I think there are a couple of reasonable options. One is for them to insert an esophagogastric tube through the side of the neck and leave it in place, secured to the carapace. Depending upon your limitations, you might be able to use that at home, yourself. The other would be just placing the tube orally for a few seconds each time it's needed. Of course, that would require him to be at the vet for some length of time or multiple visits, assuming your vet is even comfortable with this.

Thanks for the ideas!
I have screenshot your post and will bring it with me.
If my exotics vet isn't comfortable with this, I'm sure the vet school WILL be- and she's already an established patient with them.
Thanks again! [emoji2]

 

[Moozillion]

We have an appointment with the reptile specialists at the vet school for Monday, May 27 in the afternoon. I was surprised that their specialty clinic is open on Memorial Day!

 

[TammyJ]

Jacques' Memorial Day vet visit!!! Watching and hoping.

 

[Moozillion]

My dear friends, I am deeply saddened to report that at the vet visit today, we finally decided to go forward with euthanasia for Jacques.
They will do a necropsy and I will post anything useful here.

I will miss my silly little diva.

 

[Blackdog1714]

[emoji24] so sorry for you