Jacques' mystery ailment

[TammyJ]

Moozillion. You are an amazing human being, in your capacity for total dedication and caring for "your family and other animals".
Please stay right here with us forever and especially, keep up those hilarious and so well written stories! You are just as good as James Lee Burke in your own way, strongly capturing and enchanting your readers.

 

[Toddrickfl1]

OK.
This is tougher than I thought it would be.
The vet school called me with the results of Jacques' necropsy.

1) She still had pneumonia and "a lot of inflammation" in her lungs. They believe that the initial pneumonia from her drowning was never fully cured. It apparently got BETTER after each of her antibiotic treatments, but never entirely went away, then would just build up again off and on for the whole year and a half since her drowning.

2) They found "foreign material" in her lungs that she had inhaled in the drowning incident. They were not able to identify the material because her immune system attacked the material, reducing it over time to teeny yellowish blobs. It was most likely the usual crud that is in any aquarium, but is not meant to be inhaled: like teeny bits of decayed plants or poop or whatever.

3) Her immune cells had also sucked up the teeny foreign material bits and a bunch of these immune cells ended up in her liver, where they seemed stuck. So her system was trying its best to clear this crud out of her for a year and a half. The foreign material in her lungs may or may not have been the ORIGINAL cause of her pneumonia, but it certainly kept re-seeding the infection all over again after every round of antibiotics. This is because the antibiotics are in her blood and the foreign material was not, so the antibiotics couldn't reach it.

4) They also found that the nerves in her neck and front legs were degenerating and breaking down. They have NO explanation for this, and found that part of the picture very unusual. But it would have been getting harder and harder for her to move her head, mouth, throat and front legs as the nerves broke down.
She mentioned a few things that could contribute to nerve degeneration, but the only one I remembered was vitamin deficiency. It was tough, but I asked the doctor if Jacques' eating only salmon and the occasional earthworm could have caused the nerve deterioration. She said that when reptiles have vitamin deficiencies, they see MULTIPLE system defects, not just isolated nerve degeneration like Jacques had. And the earthworms would have given her a good variety of vitamins etc. I don't know if the doctor was just being kind or if this is true (self doubt rears its ugly head...)

5) There was no fungus growing out in any of their cultures, so it's a good thing we didn't go that route.
6) She said it's completely safe for me to use Jacques' tank for Nelson- there's nothing infectious for him to catch from her.

The doctor said the bottom line is that Jacques was probably not going to get better and we made the right decision in euthanizing her.

What I've learned:
1) Drowning is a very complex event that has catastrophic effects on multiple organ systems and can persist for a very long time.
2) Turtles can be very sick for a long time and even appear kind of OK when they're not.
3) Stuff happens and I need to forgive myself.

Oh, me Murphy Marge and the rest of the slider crew send ya hugs from GA. Jacques had a wonderful Life with you and you did everything you could. RIP Jacques we will all miss you.

 

[Moozillion]

Moozillion. You are an amazing human being, in your capacity for total dedication and caring for "your family and other animals".
Please stay right here with us forever and especially, keep up those hilarious and so well written stories! You are just as good as James Lee Burke in your own way, strongly capturing and enchanting your readers.

Thank you, Tammy![emoji173]️

 

[Moozillion]

Oh, me Murphy Marge and the rest of the slider crew send ya hugs from GA. Jacques had a wonderful Life with you and you did everything you could. RIP Jacques we will all miss you.

Thank you, Toddrick![emoji173]️

 

[Moozillion]

Another thing I've learned (but forgot to include in the previous post about the necropsy) is that THE ABILITY TO COUGH IS A GOOD THING!!!!!
Since turtles have no diaphragm, they have no ability to cough up crud that they need to get out of their lungs and bronchial tubes. I tend to think of my own coughing as an annoyance, but now that I think about it, I'm sure glad I can cough and get rid of stuff so that it doesn't just sit in our lungs and keep making us sick!

 

[KarenSoCal]

Bea, I can only imagine how painful it was to write all those findings out for us. Thank you for making the effort to do that.

But I hope that you have found some peace in the knowledge that nothing you did caused this, and there was nothing more you could have done to make her better.

Re' the inability to cough, I think that is one of the reasons we should make very clear to keepers who routinely allow their tort to roam the floor. No one can clean so thoroughly that there isn't one dust bunny or strands of hair somewhere.

 

[Lyn W]

OK.
This is tougher than I thought it would be.
The vet school called me with the results of Jacques' necropsy.

1) She still had pneumonia and "a lot of inflammation" in her lungs. They believe that the initial pneumonia from her drowning was never fully cured. It apparently got BETTER after each of her antibiotic treatments, but never entirely went away, then would just build up again off and on for the whole year and a half since her drowning.

2) They found "foreign material" in her lungs that she had inhaled in the drowning incident. They were not able to identify the material because her immune system attacked the material, reducing it over time to teeny yellowish blobs. It was most likely the usual crud that is in any aquarium, but is not meant to be inhaled: like teeny bits of decayed plants or poop or whatever.

3) Her immune cells had also sucked up the teeny foreign material bits and a bunch of these immune cells ended up in her liver, where they seemed stuck. So her system was trying its best to clear this crud out of her for a year and a half. The foreign material in her lungs may or may not have been the ORIGINAL cause of her pneumonia, but it certainly kept re-seeding the infection all over again after every round of antibiotics. This is because the antibiotics are in her blood and the foreign material was not, so the antibiotics couldn't reach it.

4) They also found that the nerves in her neck and front legs were degenerating and breaking down. They have NO explanation for this, and found that part of the picture very unusual. But it would have been getting harder and harder for her to move her head, mouth, throat and front legs as the nerves broke down.
She mentioned a few things that could contribute to nerve degeneration, but the only one I remembered was vitamin deficiency. It was tough, but I asked the doctor if Jacques' eating only salmon and the occasional earthworm could have caused the nerve deterioration. She said that when reptiles have vitamin deficiencies, they see MULTIPLE system defects, not just isolated nerve degeneration like Jacques had. And the earthworms would have given her a good variety of vitamins etc. I don't know if the doctor was just being kind or if this is true (self doubt rears its ugly head...)

5) There was no fungus growing out in any of their cultures, so it's a good thing we didn't go that route.
6) She said it's completely safe for me to use Jacques' tank for Nelson- there's nothing infectious for him to catch from her.

The doctor said the bottom line is that Jacques was probably not going to get better and we made the right decision in euthanizing her.

What I've learned:
1) Drowning is a very complex event that has catastrophic effects on multiple organ systems and can persist for a very long time.
2) Turtles can be very sick for a long time and even appear kind of OK when they're not.
3) Stuff happens and I need to forgive myself.

Poor little Jacques, it is amazing that there was so much going in inside her that no one could possibly know about.
You did a brilliant job fighting for her Bea, you have nothing to forgive yourself for.
Now the vets and other turtle keepers have so much more understanding and knowledge to be able to help others in the future.
Thank you Jacques and Bea.

 

[CarolM]

OK.
This is tougher than I thought it would be.
The vet school called me with the results of Jacques' necropsy.

1) She still had pneumonia and "a lot of inflammation" in her lungs. They believe that the initial pneumonia from her drowning was never fully cured. It apparently got BETTER after each of her antibiotic treatments, but never entirely went away, then would just build up again off and on for the whole year and a half since her drowning.

2) They found "foreign material" in her lungs that she had inhaled in the drowning incident. They were not able to identify the material because her immune system attacked the material, reducing it over time to teeny yellowish blobs. It was most likely the usual crud that is in any aquarium, but is not meant to be inhaled: like teeny bits of decayed plants or poop or whatever.

3) Her immune cells had also sucked up the teeny foreign material bits and a bunch of these immune cells ended up in her liver, where they seemed stuck. So her system was trying its best to clear this crud out of her for a year and a half. The foreign material in her lungs may or may not have been the ORIGINAL cause of her pneumonia, but it certainly kept re-seeding the infection all over again after every round of antibiotics. This is because the antibiotics are in her blood and the foreign material was not, so the antibiotics couldn't reach it.

4) They also found that the nerves in her neck and front legs were degenerating and breaking down. They have NO explanation for this, and found that part of the picture very unusual. But it would have been getting harder and harder for her to move her head, mouth, throat and front legs as the nerves broke down.
She mentioned a few things that could contribute to nerve degeneration, but the only one I remembered was vitamin deficiency. It was tough, but I asked the doctor if Jacques' eating only salmon and the occasional earthworm could have caused the nerve deterioration. She said that when reptiles have vitamin deficiencies, they see MULTIPLE system defects, not just isolated nerve degeneration like Jacques had. And the earthworms would have given her a good variety of vitamins etc. I don't know if the doctor was just being kind or if this is true (self doubt rears its ugly head...)

5) There was no fungus growing out in any of their cultures, so it's a good thing we didn't go that route.
6) She said it's completely safe for me to use Jacques' tank for Nelson- there's nothing infectious for him to catch from her.

The doctor said the bottom line is that Jacques was probably not going to get better and we made the right decision in euthanizing her.

What I've learned:
1) Drowning is a very complex event that has catastrophic effects on multiple organ systems and can persist for a very long time.
2) Turtles can be very sick for a long time and even appear kind of OK when they're not.
3) Stuff happens and I need to forgive myself.

Oh Wow Bea. Yes I definitely agree on your last point. You did everything you could. It also shows just how tough they can be. Jacque' s fought the fight along with you for over a year. But it was obviously her time, at least you were able to help her to go peacefully. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. A big electronic hug from me.

 

[JoesMum]

OK.
This is tougher than I thought it would be.
The vet school called me with the results of Jacques' necropsy.

1) She still had pneumonia and "a lot of inflammation" in her lungs. They believe that the initial pneumonia from her drowning was never fully cured. It apparently got BETTER after each of her antibiotic treatments, but never entirely went away, then would just build up again off and on for the whole year and a half since her drowning.

2) They found "foreign material" in her lungs that she had inhaled in the drowning incident. They were not able to identify the material because her immune system attacked the material, reducing it over time to teeny yellowish blobs. It was most likely the usual crud that is in any aquarium, but is not meant to be inhaled: like teeny bits of decayed plants or poop or whatever.

3) Her immune cells had also sucked up the teeny foreign material bits and a bunch of these immune cells ended up in her liver, where they seemed stuck. So her system was trying its best to clear this crud out of her for a year and a half. The foreign material in her lungs may or may not have been the ORIGINAL cause of her pneumonia, but it certainly kept re-seeding the infection all over again after every round of antibiotics. This is because the antibiotics are in her blood and the foreign material was not, so the antibiotics couldn't reach it.

4) They also found that the nerves in her neck and front legs were degenerating and breaking down. They have NO explanation for this, and found that part of the picture very unusual. But it would have been getting harder and harder for her to move her head, mouth, throat and front legs as the nerves broke down.
She mentioned a few things that could contribute to nerve degeneration, but the only one I remembered was vitamin deficiency. It was tough, but I asked the doctor if Jacques' eating only salmon and the occasional earthworm could have caused the nerve deterioration. She said that when reptiles have vitamin deficiencies, they see MULTIPLE system defects, not just isolated nerve degeneration like Jacques had. And the earthworms would have given her a good variety of vitamins etc. I don't know if the doctor was just being kind or if this is true (self doubt rears its ugly head...)

5) There was no fungus growing out in any of their cultures, so it's a good thing we didn't go that route.
6) She said it's completely safe for me to use Jacques' tank for Nelson- there's nothing infectious for him to catch from her.

The doctor said the bottom line is that Jacques was probably not going to get better and we made the right decision in euthanizing her.

What I've learned:
1) Drowning is a very complex event that has catastrophic effects on multiple organ systems and can persist for a very long time.
2) Turtles can be very sick for a long time and even appear kind of OK when they're not.
3) Stuff happens and I need to forgive myself.

Many, many electronic hugs Bea xxx

I know from personal experience with Joe that the self doubt will keep coming back... it’s tough to push it away. There’s absolutely nothing I did to cause Joe’s tumour, you’re no more to blame for Jacques and we both did the right thing in opting for putting our dear friends to sleep.

Do forgive yourself. You did everything you could for Jacques and more x

 

[Moozillion]

Bea, I can only imagine how painful it was to write all those findings out for us. Thank you for making the effort to do that.

But I hope that you have found some peace in the knowledge that nothing you did caused this, and there was nothing more you could have done to make her better.

Re' the inability to cough, I think that is one of the reasons we should make very clear to keepers who routinely allow their tort to roam the floor. No one can clean so thoroughly that there isn't one dust bunny or strands of hair somewhere.

Thanks so much, KarenCoCal.
Yesterday, as I got the news and processed it, I had some doubts, which I think is only natural: any of us responsible for pets (or people for that matter!) tend to blame ourselves initially. but I'm feeling better today. I always DID wonder if the pneumonia had ever been fully cleared. But with the crud still in her lungs after almost 2 years, it was probably never going to clear out.

 

[Moozillion]

Poor little Jacques, it is amazing that there was so much going in inside her that no one could possibly know about.
You did a brilliant job fighting for her Bea, you have nothing to forgive yourself for.
Now the vets and other turtle keepers have so much more understanding and knowledge to be able to help others in the future.
Thank you Jacques and Bea.

Thanks so much, Lyn.

 

[Moozillion]

Oh Wow Bea. Yes I definitely agree on your last point. You did everything you could. It also shows just how tough they can be. Jacque' s fought the fight along with you for over a year. But it was obviously her time, at least you were able to help her to go peacefully. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. A big electronic hug from me.

Thanks so much, Carol.

 

[Moozillion]

Many, many electronic hugs Bea xxx

I know from personal experience with Joe that the self doubt will keep coming back... it’s tough to push it away. There’s absolutely nothing I did to cause Joe’s tumour, you’re no more to blame for Jacques and we both did the right thing in opting for putting our dear friends to sleep.

Do forgive yourself. You did everything you could for Jacques and more x

Thanks so much, Linda.

 

[mark1]

lots of good information ,thanks ……… keeping these guys long term is a difficult skill , and requires lots of effort , constantly trying to improve care…….. keeping them short term not so much , as you said , they can live for years slowly dying ……... the money , effort , time and grief you put into Jacques will benefit nelson i'm sure , as well as those who followed Jacques story ………..

 

[PatC]

Poor little Jacques, it is amazing that there was so much going in inside her that no one could possibly know about.
You did a brilliant job fighting for her Bea, you have nothing to forgive yourself for.
Now the vets and other turtle keepers have so much more understanding and knowledge to be able to help others in the future.
Thank you Jacques and Bea.

Thanks so much for sharing with us.

 

[Moozillion]

lots of good information ,thanks ……… keeping these guys long term is a difficult skill , and requires lots of effort , constantly trying to improve care…….. keeping them short term not so much , as you said , they can live for years slowly dying ……... the money , effort , time and grief you put into Jacques will benefit nelson i'm sure , as well as those who followed Jacques story ………..

Thank you, mark1.[emoji2][emoji173]️

 

[Moozillion]

Thanks so much for sharing with us.

Thank you, PatC.[emoji2][emoji173]️

 

[Pearly]

Oh Bea! I just want to hold you right now! Wow! Please, please don’t beat yourself up with „could’ve, should’ves”. You did your very best at the time, gave your ALL. Your experience thread will be referenced to for years to come helping others who encounter similar problems. IfI was a pet turtle, I’d want my mom to be just like you, loving and dedicated to me and my wellbeing. You have lived through any pet owner’s ultimate nightmare and did ALL that you could to help your sick pet. Now you have all the wisdom of this whole experience. I know that with it, you will help MANY. On a side note, I hate to even think of your vet bill! I took my kitty to vet ER one night when she was sick and just few hrs in there cost me 750$! Yours with the university vets, and all the things that you tried... omg! must be thousands! How did you manage? Can we help?

 

[Moozillion]

Oh Bea! I just want to hold you right now! Wow! Please, please don’t beat yourself up with „could’ve, should’ves”. You did your very best at the time, gave your ALL. Your experience thread will be referenced to for years to come helping others who encounter similar problems. IfI was a pet turtle, I’d want my mom to be just like you, loving and dedicated to me and my wellbeing. You have lived through any pet owner’s ultimate nightmare and did ALL that you could to help your sick pet. Now you have all the wisdom of this whole experience. I know that with it, you will help MANY. On a side note, I hate to even think of your vet bill! I took my kitty to vet ER one night when she was sick and just few hrs in there cost me 750$! Yours with the university vets, and all the things that you tried... omg! must be thousands! How did you manage? Can we help?

Thanks so much, Pearly.
Happily, the final costs were not as bad as we had feared they might be.
The vet school NEEDS animals for their trainees to learn about, so their clinic fees are really not much more than the exotic vet that we took Jacques to in New Orleans.
And the vet school necropsies are free when done on an animal that was an active patient of theirs at the time of their passing. So ALL the information from Jacques' necropsy was free of charge for us.
We're doing fine in that regard.
Thanks so much for thinking of us!

 

[TammyJ]

Another thing I've learned (but forgot to include in the previous post about the necropsy) is that THE ABILITY TO COUGH IS A GOOD THING!!!!!
Since turtles have no diaphragm, they have no ability to cough up crud that they need to get out of their lungs and bronchial tubes. I tend to think of my own coughing as an annoyance, but now that I think about it, I'm sure glad I can cough and get rid of stuff so that it doesn't just sit in our lungs and keep making us sick!

That's right. And horses cannot vomit.