Jacques' mystery ailment

[Moozillion]

One thing we all have in common here, eh Cheryl Hills? Our love for our pets.

i think TFO is an especially loving bunch of people because we see value in animals that so many people overlook or don't regard as worthy of being a pet.
One of my favorite quotes is from Nietzche, where he says, "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
We hear music that many people don't.
Thank you all for sharing in Jacques' life with me.

 

[crimson_lotus]

So sorry for your loss! I don't post very often but definitely kept watch on Jaques condition.

 

[Moozillion]

So sorry for your loss! I don't post very often but definitely kept watch on Jaques condition.

Thank you, crimson_lotus.

 

[KarenSoCal]

Oh, Bea, I've been off TFO for a week...

Your dear Jacques was inspirational, entertaining, and really funny. She brought so many smiles to me, and now she has brought tears.

What a legacy for a turtle! Literally hundreds, maybe thousands, have laughed with you watching her little dances, and cheering you both on when she wasn't feeling well.

You gave her the best in life, and now in death.

She's happy and healthy now, swimming around looking for salmon chunks to drop by.

May you have peace, and a serene heart.

 

[Lyn W]

My dear friends, I am deeply saddened to report that at the vet visit today, we finally decided to go forward with euthanasia for Jacques.
They will do a necropsy and I will post anything useful here.

I will miss my silly little diva.

View attachment 273207



View attachment 273208

I am so sorry to hear this Bea, Jacques was such a little character and I will miss reading about her antics.
You did everything possible to try to save her and I hope you can take some comfort on the fact that she isn't suffering anymore and that she has also gone on to help vets help other turtles who may have this mysterious condition.
Thinking of you, take care.

 

[Moozillion]

Oh, Bea, I've been off TFO for a week...

Your dear Jacques was inspirational, entertaining, and really funny. She brought so many smiles to me, and now she has brought tears.

What a legacy for a turtle! Literally hundreds, maybe thousands, have laughed with you watching her little dances, and cheering you both on when she wasn't feeling well.

You gave her the best in life, and now in death.

She's happy and healthy now, swimming around looking for salmon chunks to drop by.

May you have peace, and a serene heart.

THank you, KarenSoCal!

 

[Moozillion]

I am so sorry to hear this Bea, Jacques was such a little character and I will miss reading about her antics.
You did everything possible to try to save her and I hope you can take some comfort on the fact that she isn't suffering anymore and that she has also gone on to help vets help other turtles who may have this mysterious condition.
Thinking of you, take care.

Thank you so much, Lyn.

 

[Kristoff]

So sorry to read this, Bea. But thank you for sharing. Jacques was such a character, our special diva, and we’ll all miss her. Thinking of you. [emoji173]️

 

[Moozillion]

So sorry to read this, Bea. But thank you for sharing. Jacques was such a character, our special diva, and we’ll all miss her. Thinking of you. [emoji173]️

Thank you, Kristoff.[emoji173]️

 

[Moozillion]

Just a little follow up for Jacques' fans.
I thought I would have heard back by now on the necropsy results, so I phoned the vet school.
They are doing a VERY thorough examination of all her body tissues, and have sent some to the histology department for microscopic studies and cultures etc. Once ALL the results from all the tests are in, someone will phone me to discuss the results.
Thinking about it, since they are both a veterinary school , a research facility and a tertiary referral center for all the animal specialists in the state (including the zoos) it makes sense for them to get all the answers they possibly can.
I really do take some comfort in knowing that Jacques did not die in vain, and she WILL be able to help other turtles by providing information posthumously.

Of course, I will post results here once I have received them.

 

[Kalbrecht]

This story breaks my heart because a couple years ago I found one of my red sliders trapped under the waterfall filter. He was 10 years old. It broke me up inside. Its never easy to deal with such a tragedy. You have definitely gone above and beyond for Jacques. I'll be praying for you both. Nelson is a cutie, I'm glad you have your new baby to lift your spirits. [emoji7]

 

[Moozillion]

This story breaks my heart because a couple years ago I found one of my red sliders trapped under the waterfall filter. He was 10 years old. It broke me up inside. Its never easy to deal with such a tragedy. You have definitely gone above and beyond for Jacques. I'll be praying for you both. Nelson is a cutie, I'm glad you have your new baby to lift your spirits. [emoji7]

Thank you, kalbrect[emoji2][emoji173]️

 

[Pearly]

Oh, Bea! I’m trying to get back in the groove with TFO and trying to scan through some threads of old friends to start catching up, and run across this thread!!! Omg! I had no idea you’ve been through such an ordeal with your little cutie! I am so so very sorry you had to go through that, on the other hand what and inspiration, and great education to this Forum you have been! Thank you for taking your time to share your experience. How gut wrenching this must have been for you! I am so sorry and sad for your loss! my deepest belated condolences, and warmest hugs[emoji173]️[emoji173]️[emoji173]️ can’t wait to see your Nelson. Glad you’ve decided to get him.

 

[Moozillion]

Oh, Bea! I’m trying to get back in the groove with TFO and trying to scan through some threads of old friends to start catching up, and run across this thread!!! Omg! I had no idea you’ve been through such an ordeal with your little cutie! I am so so very sorry you had to go through that, on the other hand what and inspiration, and great education to this Forum you have been! Thank you for taking your time to share your experience. How gut wrenching this must have been for you! I am so sorry and sad for your loss! my deepest belated condolences, and warmest hugs[emoji173]️[emoji173]️[emoji173]️ can’t wait to see your Nelson. Glad you’ve decided to get him.

Thanks so much, Pearly. (Glad to see you back!)

 

[CarolM]

Just a little follow up for Jacques' fans.
I thought I would have heard back by now on the necropsy results, so I phoned the vet school.
They are doing a VERY thorough examination of all her body tissues, and have sent some to the histology department for microscopic studies and cultures etc. Once ALL the results from all the tests are in, someone will phone me to discuss the results.
Thinking about it, since they are both a veterinary school , a research facility and a tertiary referral center for all the animal specialists in the state (including the zoos) it makes sense for them to get all the answers they possibly can.
I really do take some comfort in knowing that Jacques did not die in vain, and she WILL be able to help other turtles by providing information posthumously.

Of course, I will post results here once I have received them.

Hi Bea,

Any further feedback yet?

 

[Moozillion]

Hi Bea,

Any further feedback yet?

No, not yet.
If they are culturing for fungus, then I know that can take a few weeks, dang it.
I may call them this week anyhow, just to see.

 

[CarolM]

No, not yet.
If they are culturing for fungus, then I know that can take a few weeks, dang it.
I may call them this week anyhow, just to see.

Sjoe, they sure are doing a thorough job.!!

 

[Moozillion]

OK.
This is tougher than I thought it would be.
The vet school called me with the results of Jacques' necropsy.

1) She still had pneumonia and "a lot of inflammation" in her lungs. They believe that the initial pneumonia from her drowning was never fully cured. It apparently got BETTER after each of her antibiotic treatments, but never entirely went away, then would just build up again off and on for the whole year and a half since her drowning.

2) They found "foreign material" in her lungs that she had inhaled in the drowning incident. They were not able to identify the material because her immune system attacked the material, reducing it over time to teeny yellowish blobs. It was most likely the usual crud that is in any aquarium, but is not meant to be inhaled: like teeny bits of decayed plants or poop or whatever.

3) Her immune cells had also sucked up the teeny foreign material bits and a bunch of these immune cells ended up in her liver, where they seemed stuck. So her system was trying its best to clear this crud out of her for a year and a half. The foreign material in her lungs may or may not have been the ORIGINAL cause of her pneumonia, but it certainly kept re-seeding the infection all over again after every round of antibiotics. This is because the antibiotics are in her blood and the foreign material was not, so the antibiotics couldn't reach it.

4) They also found that the nerves in her neck and front legs were degenerating and breaking down. They have NO explanation for this, and found that part of the picture very unusual. But it would have been getting harder and harder for her to move her head, mouth, throat and front legs as the nerves broke down.
She mentioned a few things that could contribute to nerve degeneration, but the only one I remembered was vitamin deficiency. It was tough, but I asked the doctor if Jacques' eating only salmon and the occasional earthworm could have caused the nerve deterioration. She said that when reptiles have vitamin deficiencies, they see MULTIPLE system defects, not just isolated nerve degeneration like Jacques had. And the earthworms would have given her a good variety of vitamins etc. I don't know if the doctor was just being kind or if this is true (self doubt rears its ugly head...)

5) There was no fungus growing out in any of their cultures, so it's a good thing we didn't go that route.
6) She said it's completely safe for me to use Jacques' tank for Nelson- there's nothing infectious for him to catch from her.

The doctor said the bottom line is that Jacques was probably not going to get better and we made the right decision in euthanizing her.

What I've learned:
1) Drowning is a very complex event that has catastrophic effects on multiple organ systems and can persist for a very long time.
2) Turtles can be very sick for a long time and even appear kind of OK when they're not.
3) Stuff happens and I need to forgive myself.

 

[vladimir]

Oh @Moozillion *hugs* you did an amazing job with Jacques. I remember the day the drowning incident happened. Its a tough situation but you can't blame yourself...

Thank you so much for sharing the details. Hopefully the information may provide insight that can help other sick or injured turtles and tortoises [emoji173]️

 

[Moozillion]

Oh @Moozillion *hugs* you did an amazing job with Jacques. I remember the day the drowning incident happened. Its a tough situation but you can't blame yourself...

Thank you so much for sharing the details. Hopefully the information may provide insight that can help other sick or injured turtles and tortoises [emoji173]️

Thanks, vladimir.
I know I did everything I knew and learned a bunch and used several experts for help.
I appreciate your support.
It was a bit of a jolt, but I'm ok.
Thanks so much!