Juvenile Sulcata Habitat Critique please

[ArcT]

Hello,

First let me say thank you everyone for all of the shared knowledge here and care that shows and is shared on the forum. I have silently read for awhile before posting to help prepare for a new arrival.

I have raised torts before the "dry" way and have unfortunately learned what doesn't work.

Then i found this forum and after reading as well as further research into natural enviroments am working with an enclosed humid set up. I had a few days to nail down temp gradient of 10-15 degrees across ranging from 82 to 97, however the youngin' (est age 4 mo.) arrived earlier than expected so im still working on nailing down humidity stabilization. Misting the tank 2x daily to keep up however. Set up as follows:

-MVB 100 watt over slate basking spot. Keeps basking spot high side around 100 and low side 97ish. Hooked to thermostat set at approx 100 and timer for 12hr cycle, on for 90% of 12 hr cycle.
-160 CHE on second therm 24/7 set around 93 as best i can tell. (Zilla 1000 watt appear good but arent great at exact numbers it seems. Temps measured with multiple sensors and temp gun.)
Really damp coco choir
Shallow hot tub (planter dish, sloped)
Hot hide with water dish on top for added evap/humidty. All temp measurements have shown in mid 80s in the hide. Have the original hide ordered coming, will add as mid to cool side hide when arrives.
Wheat grass on gently sloped hill growing in enclosure.
Temps measured with home depot specials, one on each end, a digital behind the basking spot and an analog disc for kicks in the front corner.




From what ive read he/she appears to have been raised a little dry, however i read somewhere else on here when someone asked advice in regards to that: "...i would give it the best enviroment possible and care for it..."which is what i plan on doing.

With all the above, is there anything anyone else can suggest to create as an ideal enviroment as possible please? I know when to seek knowledge and want to ensure i do this right the first time for this little guy who will eventually have his/her own shed, i know what im getting into.

Any feedback is appreciated. Thank you all.

 

[Tom]

Your baby will be housed better than 99% of the babies out there if you change nothing. But since you asked for a critique, I will nit pick on things that I would do a little differently. There aren't many…

1. I would not run the MVB on a thermostat. Its not good for them to be shutting on and off.
2. Running the MVB in that deep dome double hood is likely to over heat it and greatly shorten its lifespan. You should run it in a Home Depot 10.5 inch ceramic based hood. All you need is a timer on it.
3. You are losing humidity and having trouble with it because the heating and lighting equipment is outside the enclosure and it creates a chimney effect drawing your heat and humidity up and out of the enclosure. For your next enclosure as your baby grows make it much bigger and design it with the heat and lights INSIDE the closed chamber. This makes life so much easier for you and better for them, and you will save a ton on electricity.
4. Set your 160 watt CHE on its thermostat to 80ish. Use the dial as a reasonable starting point, but set it with a good thermometer. Its okay if your ambient creeps up to 93 during the day, but you don't need it that high day and night.
5. Coco coir is okay, but I prefer fine grade orchid bark purchased cheaply in bulk from any garden center. They don't usually carry it at HD or Lowes.
6. I don't see you water dish in the pics, but I prefer terra cotta saucers sunk into the substrate for both food and water.

Since this is your first post, I'd like to welcome you and I will leave these here just incase you haven't seen them all yet:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi ArcT, and welcome to the Forum! If it were my enclosure, I'd go ahead and leave the coco coir, but add a couple inches of small grade orchid bark over the top of it.

 

[ArcT]

Thank you Tom and Yvonne. All critiques/suggestions appreciated and noted. I Plan on custom building another in a year or so with the upgrades mentioned and passing this cage to my son for his bearded dragon.

The care sheets you referred too are what i plan on following. Thank you for sharing here as well.

If i may ask another question please? Is the only concern with the MVB and thermostat/dual dome set up the lifespan of the MVB bulb? If i have to replace more frequently i am not as concerned about lifespan of mvb, only that it has the overheat protection of thermostat as my house can fluctuate high even with the air on in the summer. Id rather have to replace MVB more often and have peace of mind of no overheat for the little guy. It so far only self on/off adjusts in mornings.

I was thinking of sealing the deep domes on the side with aluminum tape to help air sealing? They sit on a metal screen currently and switching out the domes isnt an option at this moment. my father was like mcguyver and taught me well so i will figure something out if it is just bulb life thats a concern.

Water dish is a small 5 inch ceramic plant saucer currently, changed daily. Just not in the prev pick. That recomendation from the forum was an anxiety saver, previous experience always had me watching for tortoise drownings...

 

[Tom]

When the thermostat kicks the MVB off, is it dark in the enclosure?

This is not good. Our indoor bulbs are there to simulate the sun. The sun should not go on and off several times a day.

Your primary basking source should be on a timer. It should come on and off at the same time everyday. (Exceptions for temperate species that either hibernate or are kept up and might need longer or shorter days over the course of a year…)

Adjust the height and the wattage so the temp under it is correct and leave it set on a timer.

 

[jaizei]

Thank you Tom and Yvonne. All critiques/suggestions appreciated and noted. I Plan on custom building another in a year or so with the upgrades mentioned and passing this cage to my son for his bearded dragon.

The care sheets you referred too are what i plan on following. Thank you for sharing here as well.

If i may ask another question please? Is the only concern with the MVB and thermostat/dual dome set up the lifespan of the MVB bulb? If i have to replace more frequently i am not as concerned about lifespan of mvb, only that it has the overheat protection of thermostat as my house can fluctuate high even with the air on in the summer. Id rather have to replace MVB more often and have peace of mind of no overheat for the little guy. It so far only self on/off adjusts in mornings.

I was thinking of sealing the deep domes on the side with aluminum tape to help air sealing? They sit on a metal screen currently and switching out the domes isnt an option at this moment. my father was like mcguyver and taught me well so i will figure something out if it is just bulb life thats a concern.

Water dish is a small 5 inch ceramic plant saucer currently, changed daily. Just not in the prev pick. That recomendation from the forum was an anxiety saver, previous experience always had me watching for tortoise drownings...

If the thermostat turns off at 100*, when does it turn back on?

 

[ArcT]

Ok. Basking light sit noted. Will have to adjust.

For the basking the most i have seen if turn on and off is 3 times in the morning. This is after other light coming from the window has shone in to the cage from the morning sun. I was concerned about the on off as well and have been monitoring for the reasons given.

The MVB never actually hits its set temp after the morning warm up so stays steady the rest of the 7a to 7p cycle and keeps basking spot rock "high side" (rock is at mini slant high side under bulb. ) 100deg, low side 95. My biggest concern is a high temp swing and having the MVB just keep blasting on a warm day where my air conditioning cant keep up and without the thermostat safety shutoff and coming home to a cooked tort. Regarding returning to on after a thermostat shut off, the MVB Turns back on if the back of basking spot drops to 93ish based on a temp gun.

Thank you all again. Your insights are all appreciated.

 

[Tom]

My biggest concern is a high temp swing and having the MVB just keep blasting on a warm day where my air conditioning cant keep up and without the thermostat safety shutoff and coming home to a cooked tort. Regarding returning to on after a thermostat shut off, the MVB Turns back on if the back of basking spot drops to 93ish based on a temp gun.

I don't think its turning on and off 3 times in the morning because of the thermostat. If it was going to turn off, it would do it after things warm up and the room temp climbs. These bulbs have built in overheating protection. I'll bet that your dome fixture is causing it to over heat, but I don't know why this would happen early in the day, but not later in the day.

Your above nightmare should not be able to happen with a properly sized and height adjusted heat lamp.

Here is an idea you might prefer: I can't use MVB inside my closed chambers because they overheat the entire 4x8 chamber. They are too hot. Instead I run 65 watt flood bulbs and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp. Some people use a rheostat instead of adjusting the height. If your tortoise gets regular sunshine most of the year, you don't need indoor UV. If your tortoise needs indoor UV you could provide it with a long tube type florescent bulb.

 

[Tom]

Here is a heating and lighting breakdown I did for another member:

"Let me break down the heating and lighting thing. You need three or four elements:
1. Heat. During the day this is best accomplished with 65 watt flood bulbs from the hardware store set on digital timers. These also give some light. Move them higher or lower to get the basking temp under them correct. I buy them in 6 packs, so if they burn out I always have a spare on hand.
2. Light. Sometimes the basking bulb and ambient room light are enough. If not, use a tube style florescent strip light form the hardware store. Run it on the same timer as the heat lamps. Try to get a bulb in the 5000-6500K color range. The more common 2500K color range bulbs look yellowish.
3. Ambient temp maintenance and night heat. Tortoises need it dark at night, but still warm. This is best accomplished with the use of a CHE in a ceramic based fixture. Get the 11" ceramic based domes from Home Depot for all your heat lamps.
4. UV. Best to sun them for an hour two or more times a week. Its okay to skip a few weeks over winter and this will do no harm. Since you live in the frozen North (Okay, Midwest, but its a figure of speech…), you will need to provide some artificial UV. Several options for this:
a. Use a mercury vapor bulb, like the power sun for your basking bulb. Use this in the Home Depot fixture I mentioned, not in a small pet store dome or deep dome. Replace it every fall.
b. Use a long tube type 10.0 florescent bulb. These MUST be mounted no more than 10-12" from the tortoise to be effective.
c. Get an Arcadia 12% HO bulb from lightyourreptiles.com. These are great, but they make a lot of UV. Mount it at least 18" and as much as 26" away from the tortoise and put it on its own timer for only about 4 hours a day."

Maybe there is some insight in this for you?

 

[ArcT]

Great idea on smaller bulbs. UV in our area difficult currently but outdoor time in the wife's organic garden will be good this summer.

The MVB and themostat hypothesis is from watching that unit switch on and off with the light as well and measuring temps while i was working to understand my habitat cycle. In the morning the CHE and MVB occasionally cycle on together for short bursts of <5 min while the temps come up. Otherwise the CHE is generally only on at night so far, with the MVB on all day. I think im going to have to reasses the MVB though. Thank you again.

 

[ArcT]

Here is a heating and lighting breakdown I did for another member:

"Let me break down the heating and lighting thing. You need three or four elements:
1. Heat. During the day this is best accomplished with 65 watt flood bulbs from the hardware store set on digital timers. These also give some light. Move them higher or lower to get the basking temp under them correct. I buy them in 6 packs, so if they burn out I always have a spare on hand.
2. Light. Sometimes the basking bulb and ambient room light are enough. If not, use a tube style florescent strip light form the hardware store. Run it on the same timer as the heat lamps. Try to get a bulb in the 5000-6500K color range. The more common 2500K color range bulbs look yellowish.
3. Ambient temp maintenance and night heat. Tortoises need it dark at night, but still warm. This is best accomplished with the use of a CHE in a ceramic based fixture. Get the 11" ceramic based domes from Home Depot for all your heat lamps.
4. UV. Best to sun them for an hour two or more times a week. Its okay to skip a few weeks over winter and this will do no harm. Since you live in the frozen North (Okay, Midwest, but its a figure of speech…), you will need to provide some artificial UV. Several options for this:
a. Use a mercury vapor bulb, like the power sun for your basking bulb. Use this in the Home Depot fixture I mentioned, not in a small pet store dome or deep dome. Replace it every fall.
b. Use a long tube type 10.0 florescent bulb. These MUST be mounted no more than 10-12" from the tortoise to be effective.
c. Get an Arcadia 12% HO bulb from lightyourreptiles.com. These are great, but they make a lot of UV. Mount it at least 18" and as much as 26" away from the tortoise and put it on its own timer for only about 4 hours a day."

Maybe there is some insight in this for you?

Yes, all great insight. Thank you.