Keeping two Russians—Different sexes?

Onomatotia

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Hello!

My husband and I currently have a ~3 y.o. male Russian tortoise, Dodger. He’s been so awesome that we’re considering getting him a sister or brother.

Since the second tort would be too young to sex definitively, I have a question.

Disclaimer: I have no intention of ever breeding the two and they would always be housed separately indoors and out from day one.

If the second tortoise does end up being female, will my male spend the rest of his life trying to find a way to get to her to mate? Would having a male and female in the same vicinity be stressful to either of them in anyway?

We have our current Russian in a 2 story 4’x4’ tort table that I’m renovating before he comes in for the winter. Our new baby, once she/he gets old enough for lower humidity would have the same size accommodations but would have to be housed in the same room.

Their outdoor enclosures will have to be near each other since one side of my yard is always shaded and floods pretty regularly if there is a heavy rain.

I’d love to get another baby from @Carol S since she gave us our beautiful boy, but I’ve also considered a E. Hermann if another Russian will somehow be too stressful for Dodger or our new addition.

Thanks so much!
 

ZEROPILOT

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Two of any species is usually a very bad idea.
Russian tortoises are the least tolerant and most prone to fight species.
They love to have the whole world to themselves.
Are you asking if they can detect each other?
Because I once had a Redfoot Male that DID indeed know that I had females nearby and his pen had to be located to the other side of the yard.
Even then I eventually had to give him to another member for his own health. He was dead set on breaking into the ladies enclosure even though I had sight barriers up.
 
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Onomatotia

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I will have two enclosures but both enclosures will have to be in the same room in my home. And outdoors the enclosures will have to be on the same side of the yard. I never had any intention on housing them together.
 

Onomatotia

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I am worried that they’ll be stressed out by just occupying the same area. Like if a dog is in heat and driving all the male dogs in the neighborhood crazy...?
 

ZEROPILOT

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I am worried that they’ll be stressed out by just occupying the same area. Like if a dog is in heat and driving all the male dogs in the neighborhood crazy...?
Gotcha.
I'd just be guessing about that since I don't keep Russians.
But it sounds like a good plan that you have
Especially if they can't see each other.
 

Onomatotia

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Two of any species is usually a very bad idea.
Russian tortoises are the least tolerant and most prone to fight species.
They love to have the whole world to themselves.
Are you asking if they can detect each other?
Because I once had a Redfoot Male that DID indeed know that I had females nearby and his pen had to be located to the other side of the yard.
Even then I eventually had to give him to another member for his own health.
Yes! Exactly what I was asking. Do you think it would be a problem with a different species? Would my male Russian be able to detect a Hermann? Or say I adopt an adult that I can be sure is another male? No matter the situation, l’ll always only house one tort per enclosure.
 

Onomatotia

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Gotcha.
I'd just be guessing about that since I don't keep Russians.
But it sounds like a good plan that you have
Especially if they can't see each other.
I wasn’t sure how much a tort could detect the scent or presence of another tort from a distance. I don’t want my poor little guy driven mad by his unrequited desire from across the room.

Thank you for your help. I just don’t want to get a second one and then have to rehome when asking a question could’ve helped me make a more responsible decision in the first place.
 

LaLaP

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I have 2 male Russians who have shown very aggressive behavior the few times they have even caught a glimpse of each other. Their indoor enclosures are in the same room and outdoor enclosures are side by side. As long as they don't see each other they live harmoniously. I imagine they must smell each other and even hear the other crunching on food and digging but they are totally fine. Of course mine is just one experience.
 

Tom

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When they are young, you won't have any problem. When they are mature and those pheromones are pumping, you might have a restless male on your hands. But you might not... There are a lot of variables here.
 

Onomatotia

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When they are young, you won't have any problem. When they are mature and those pheromones are pumping, you might have a restless male on your hands. But you might not... There are a lot of variables here.
Hi Tom. Honestly, that’s kinda what I figured. Since I don’t have room to really distance the enclosures from one another if our male does become...overly amorous, better safe than sorry? I don’t want to have to re-home in the future and adding a new wing for our Russian prince is not really in the budget.

I’ve been discussing Hermanns and Marginated with Tyler or Sarah (not sure who is replying to my emails) from Tortoise Supply, so I’ll probably go with one of them. Recs? Get an adult Hermanns who is already sexed? Will sex really matter with another type of tortoise? As much as I would love to have another gorgeous Russian from Carol, I don’t want to have one at the expense of Dodger’s or the new tort’s wellbeing.

Secondary question, I did see your response on another thread (not sure if it was new or old, since I was combing through many previous threads before posting this question) about disagreeing with a vet who said Russians shouldn’t be hibernated until they’re 5 y.o. My vet told me the same thing...care to expand upon that? I’d love to have more info.
 

Tom

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Hi Tom. Honestly, that’s kinda what I figured. Since I don’t have room to really distance the enclosures from one another if our male does become...overly amorous, better safe than sorry? I don’t want to have to re-home in the future and adding a new wing for our Russian prince is not really in the budget.

I’ve been discussing Hermanns and Marginated with Tyler or Sarah (not sure who is replying to my emails) from Tortoise Supply, so I’ll probably go with one of them. Recs? Get an adult Hermanns who is already sexed? Will sex really matter with another type of tortoise? As much as I would love to have another gorgeous Russian from Carol, I don’t want to have one at the expense of Dodger’s or the new tort’s wellbeing.

Secondary question, I did see your response on another thread (not sure if it was new or old, since I was combing through many previous threads before posting this question) about disagreeing with a vet who said Russians shouldn’t be hibernated until they’re 5 y.o. My vet told me the same thing...care to expand upon that? I’d love to have more info.

If you end up with a male and female of different species, there is still a chance that the male will know she's there and go bonkers twice a year. Where are you located? Is outdoor housing an option?

About hibernation: The word "hibernation" means different things to different people. Many people just leave their tortoises outside to fend for themselves and call that hibernation. Some people put them in boxes and bring them indoors where temps and conditions are more stable, but usually too warm. I go through a long lead in to empty their gut and hydrate them, then hibernate them indoors in a fridge with the correct temps for the species. As you can guess, the people leaving them outside subject to the temperature extremes, predators, and whims of Mother Nature will have all sorts of horror stories and reasons to not hibernate tortoises. Meanwhile, I've hibernated many species of lizards, snakes, turtles and tortoises and never had a problem. In the wild, where the temperate species we are talking about come from, the seasons come and go every year. Babies are equipped to deal with this as well as adults. I've hibernated dozens of first year babies of many species, and had 100% success In the wild, they have all sorts of survival strategies and microclimates to help them survive. In captivity, I help them out. If done correctly, I don't see any more risk than if you didn't hibernate them at all. Done incorrectly, the risks are substantial. Having said all of that, no tortoise species "needs" to hibernate. Its my opinion that if they hibernate in the wild, they should be hibernated in captivity, but there are many examples of people who don't hibernate them and there appears to be no ill effect, even after many years. Does this lack of hibernation shorten their life span from 200 years to a mere 150 years? I don't know. None of us reading this will ever know.

About vets: They are just people. Some of them are smart and study hard. Others do enough to get by. There is no semester on tortoise husbandry or tortoise hibernation in vet school. Vets read the same wrong info that the rest of us read. The only vet that knows much of anything about tortoises is the vet who has kept them, bred them, raised babies, and attempted to keep them in numerous ways. Most vets have very little tortoise experience and they get their info from vet handbooks and websites in the back room. These are the vets that recommend "vitamin injections" for just about any tortoise that enters their clinic. Just like some of the members here, there are vets out in the world that are also crazy about tortoises and have a lot of first hand, personal experience to draw from. Most vets don't.
 

Onomatotia

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Thanks Tom! So very true regarding the vet. I love our vet, but we’ve actually sought out someone with more reptile experience and taken Dodger to him to get him in the books for if the need ever arises. Our vet is wonderful with our dog and cats, but self admittedly is lacking knowledge and expertise when dealing with tortoises.

We live in central Ohio. Dodger, our Russian lives outside in a 10’x30’ area, while the weather is nice (April/May-October). Up to this point hibernation has been something I don’t know enough about to have an opinion on, so he comes inside and stays awake for cooler weather. I will start doing some reading and decide if it’s something I’m comfortable with. I’m too much of a worry wart to leave him outside at the mercy of the elements, so if I do hibernate I would most certainly set up a controlled environment like you mentioned above. So far he hasn’t yet really shown any sign that he wants to slow down when the weather cools. His appetite and activity levels remain high. He’s a pretty happy little guy who is usually along for the ride and seems content in his indoor enclosure or hanging out (supervised) with me in the sunroom, a.k.a The Tort Resort, being nosy and making messes in the dirt and plants I keep for him.

If we add a second tortoise, I think an already sexed male Hermann would be what we go with based on the info I’ve received from this thread. Housed separately of course. It seems if we went this route we would be able to mitigate most of my concerns just by always ensuring that the two boys stay segregated. Tortoises are only fertile twice a year? That’s interesting. I don’t know why, but I was under the impression that once sexual maturity hit, the mating wouldn’t be cyclical. I haven’t done any reading on breeding though, since it’s just not something I have the space for.

I’ve been talking to the very nice people over at Tortoise Supply and they have some larger Hermanns that can be accurately sexed and are around the same age as Dodge. I like the idea of a baby because they’re cute and tiny and will learn quickly that I am the food goddess and giver of soaks, but I’m just not sure the risk is worth it since I’m limited on space and can’t keep their enclosures expansive distances apart.
 

Onomatotia

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Oops. Didn’t reply to the right thing. See above.
If you end up with a male and female of different species, there is still a chance that the male will know she's there and go bonkers twice a year. Where are you located? Is outdoor housing an option?

About hibernation: The word "hibernation" means different things to different people. Many people just leave their tortoises outside to fend for themselves and call that hibernation. Some people put them in boxes and bring them indoors where temps and conditions are more stable, but usually too warm. I go through a long lead in to empty their gut and hydrate them, then hibernate them indoors in a fridge with the correct temps for the species. As you can guess, the people leaving them outside subject to the temperature extremes, predators, and whims of Mother Nature will have all sorts of horror stories and reasons to not hibernate tortoises. Meanwhile, I've hibernated many species of lizards, snakes, turtles and tortoises and never had a problem. In the wild, where the temperate species we are talking about come from, the seasons come and go every year. Babies are equipped to deal with this as well as adults. I've hibernated dozens of first year babies of many species, and had 100% success In the wild, they have all sorts of survival strategies and microclimates to help them survive. In captivity, I help them out. If done correctly, I don't see any more risk than if you didn't hibernate them at all. Done incorrectly, the risks are substantial. Having said all of that, no tortoise species "needs" to hibernate. Its my opinion that if they hibernate in the wild, they should be hibernated in captivity, but there are many examples of people who don't hibernate them and there appears to be no ill effect, even after many years. Does this lack of hibernation shorten their life span from 200 years to a mere 150 years? I don't know. None of us reading this will ever know.

About vets: They are just people. Some of them are smart and study hard. Others do enough to get by. There is no semester on tortoise husbandry or tortoise hibernation in vet school. Vets read the same wrong info that the rest of us read. The only vet that knows much of anything about tortoises is the vet who has kept them, bred them, raised babies, and attempted to keep them in numerous ways. Most vets have very little tortoise experience and they get their info from vet handbooks and websites in the back room. These are the vets that recommend "vitamin injections" for just about any tortoise that enters their clinic. Just like some of the members here, there are vets out in the world that are also crazy about tortoises and have a lot of first hand, personal experience to draw from. Most vets don't.
 

Tom

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I don’t know why, but I was under the impression that once sexual maturity hit, the mating wouldn’t be cyclical.

In temperate species that hibernate, you see the most mating activity in spring and again in fall. This varies greatly with individuals, climate, enclosure, sex ratio, etc...

Tyler and Sarah at tortoisesupply.com are great people. I know them personally and recommend them.
 

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