"ladderback" baby - wazupwithis?

[Redfoot NERD]

Yesterday we had this -

Both rear feet were out!

This morning I lifted the shell off of him to find this -

A beauty with the colors and head patterns otherwise!

He incubated a good 136+ days.

"The jury is still out on this one........." especially since the first 2 from the same clutch.. are perfectly formed.

What causes this in ONE hatchling out of a clutch.. but doesn't in the others'?

I have had this occur in the other females.. maybe 2% of the hatchlings.. but never SONshine - and in the past 2 years the same 2 males only!

Let's hear what you other breeders have to say?

O.K. --- speculation is fine from others too

Thanks all...

NERD

 

[matt41gb]

I've always heard of incubation temps either too high, or too low cause this, and split scutes. I have an adult just like that, also a sulcata like that. Something must happen during development that cause the scutes to not line up right. I wish I could pin point it.

Is it nature, or nurture?

-Matt

 

[Marty333]

How much for her?

 

[Torty Mom]

I have no clue, but I think the little guy is still super cute!!

 

[LindaF]

She is a cutie and all the more special because she is unique. Love the head pattern!
I think it was just nature.

 

[allegraf]

Terry, what temps were you incubating at?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Terry, what temps were you incubating at?

Same as the others Allegra.. 84 - 85 overall. And any fluctuations were never more than 24 hours. The same virtually all of the hatchlings are incubated. And 136+? days??.. longer than usual!

NERD

---

How much for her?

Let's wait and see how he does first Marty. The soonest he would be available would be late MARCH.

NERD

 

[Edna]

Well, Terry, you said we could speculate, so here goes

First theory: He was a twin that absorbed all of his other twin except those two scutes.

Second theory: Bad Karma. At some point in her life, Sonshine did something heinous (for a tortoise) and this little ladderback guy is her just reward.

Now to get serious. How sure is everyone that split scutes aren't ever a mutation? Do you prefer or insist on breeding from perfect torts in case it is sometimes the result of mutation?

 

[Jessicap]

Terry you must be terribly disappointed! How awefull to have this little deformed guy with all your perfect tortoises. I think you should send this one to me, I wouldn't want you to have such a misfit in with the rest of your torts ... lol (I think he is very beautiful)

 

[EricIvins]

The more and more I go on keeping Tortoises, the more and more I think that some split scute animals are genetic......

I've seen it happen with animals that just pop up a split scute hatchling, and from groups that produce split scute offspring with regularity........Too add on top, some animals are artificially incubated and some hatch out from the ground, in both instances.......

 

[kimby37]

I can't see the second picture

 

[Redfoot NERD]

The more and more I go on keeping Tortoises, the more and more I think that some split scute animals are genetic......

I've seen it happen with animals that just pop up a split scute hatchling, and from groups that produce split scute offspring with regularity........Too add on top, some animals are artificially incubated and some hatch out from the ground, in both instances.......

I agree Eric!

A SMALL % like 2% has to be [ whatever causes it ] something that emerges from time to time.

A hatchling from April '07 [ found it ].. look at the similarity - almost has to be a weird gene in there somewhere!

From the looks of those 'nose-bars' looks like LEGGS did it! HUH?

And look at the extreme here.. from June '09 - totally different female.. possibly LEGGS again?

NERD

 

[Tracy Gould]

That baby is soooooooooo cute, I love the markings on the head its like a Face that would be a good name lol

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Late last night - # 4 -

And that little piece of shell is still stuck to his nose this morning.

There is a 5th egg that just might be fertile yet.. with tortoise eggs ya just never know...

NERD

 

[Tim/Robin]

I have never incubated a Redfoot egg, but I can tell you with our Spiders, there is without a doubt a temperature component. I (Tim) don't doubt there could be a genetic link too. Could it be possible that this egg was positioned in the incubator in such a manner that it was exposed to a slightly higher temp? I know in my home-made incubators, there is a difference in temp from one side to the other. BTW, this is something I am working on. I will come up with a "perfect" incubator, well at least perfect in my mind and for what I am doing.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I have never incubated a Redfoot egg, but I can tell you with our Spiders, there is without a doubt a temperature component. I (Tim) don't doubt there could be a genetic link too. Could it be possible that this egg was positioned in the incubator in such a manner that it was exposed to a slightly higher temp? I know in my home-made incubators, there is a difference in temp from one side to the other. BTW, this is something I am working on. I will come up with a "perfect" incubator, well at least perfect in my mind and for what I am doing.

Tim I doubt much if any temp difference could have occurred.. for one I position the eggs so that each egg touches at least two other eggs in the clutch - the theory that the temp and humidity is transferred thru-out the entire clutch to each egg individually.. like in the wild in the nest(?).

Thanks for your input Tim!

NERD

 

[Neal]

The more I talk to other breeders the more I hear that temperatures are not a factor in split scutes. It just happens. I had a tortoise recently hatch with irregular scutes. The next week the egg incubating right next to that one hatched with a regular scute pattern. I've seen this with box turtles that I let incubate in the ground naturally....sorry Terry, but I'm not sure there's an answer out there for ya.

 

[Tim/Robin]

The more I talk to other breeders the more I hear that temperatures are not a factor in split scutes. It just happens. I had a tortoise recently hatch with irregular scutes. The next week the egg incubating right next to that one hatched with a regular scute pattern. I've seen this with box turtles that I let incubate in the ground naturally....sorry Terry, but I'm not sure there's an answer out there for ya.

I have had over 75% of my Spiders incubated at 87-89 range have splits. Eggs from the exact same mothers incubated at 82-85 have not produced splits. Incubators are identical, conditions as near the same inside as possible. The only measurable variable is temperature. For my Spiders, I am convinced temperature plays a role. I cannot speak for many other species, but I have incubated 3 Dalmatian Hermanns in the past couple of months with temps 86-89 and 3 of 3 have splits. For my Pancakes, 2 of 3 incubated at 88-89F resulted in splits. Pancakes incubated at 84-86, none had splits. A total of 9 Pancakes are included in those numbers. I realize these are very small sample sizes, but there is a significant difference in what I have experienced.
I am not saying that temperature alone is the single factor. But I have experienced that it does play a role.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Again guys.. the jury is still out on this for sure!

It is interesting to me that the splits overall all very 'uniform' in location, etc. - indicating a gene phenomenon (?).

I'm hearing anytime temps are above 87-88 the splits are more common AND the yolk is much larger because of a "premature" incubation term. Then again there can be as much as a week or more between the time any of the eggs actually pip. Spose' this is due to the order in which the eggs are deposited into the nest(?).

I recall Richard Fife saying that the more he changed the variables the more questions arose. So in nature do the temps and humidity within the nest change.. according to the "growth-phase" of the baby? ---- and on and on and on.

Welcome to the wonderful world of tortoise keeping.. a new meaning to patience!

Thanks for the [ civil ] objective "hands-on" input.. it is most appreciated............... Allegra? Carl? Douglas?.. anyone else?

Terry K

 

[Tim/Robin]

I'm hearing anytime temps are above 87-88 the splits are more common Terry K

That certainly has been my experience so far. More to come in the upcoming years!