Leopard hatchling looking bad--MBD likely, but don't know why?

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katebirdrex

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Hi, all:

I'm taking my ~5-month old hatchling to a herp vet tonight, but wanted to post here as well because I'm very mystified about what I may be missing that could be causing what I fear is MBD.

I've had Dora for about 8 weeks; she appeared healthy when I got her but she does have split scutes (my understanding is that this isn't indicative of health issues, anyone know otherwise?). I purchased her and a sibling at the same time from a reputable breeder at a reptile show.

I had a problem with my set-up and as a result I didn't have UV light on them for the first week I had them. [Feel free to holler at me about this, but you won't make me feel any worse than I already do.] During that time they were in a room that averages 80-85 degrees F. Since the first week, they've had a Megaray UV lamp set on a thermostat to ~93 degrees for their basking spot, and they both spend a lot of time under it.

Both tortoises showed signs of mild resp infections after ~1.5 weeks, which I assume was due to inadequate temps during that 1st week. I treated them both by raising the basking site temp slightly to ~98-100 degrees, soaking them both 2-3x/day, and giving them a treatment called Reptaid with their food.

One hatchling steadily improved and since then has done great. Eats like a beast, drinks water, thermoregulates, has bright clear eyes, active. Dora has had her ups and downs but has never improved to the extent that the other one did. She usually eats fairly enthusiastically but other than that is quite lethargic, and she keeps her eyes closed the large majority of the time. She's gained a couple of grams since I started weighing her (24.5 g on 5/28 up to 27 g last week and today).

Over the last couple of days she's taken a turn for the worse. Extremely lethargic, not eating, and now I find that her shell and plastron feel very soft.

Husbandry details:
Substrate: 60% play sand/40% potting soil (they were on rabbit pellets the first 1.5 weeks, which I learned was a bad idea)
Enclosure: Plastic bin approx 3' long x 8" tall x 18" wide, 2 very shallow water dishes, 1 food dish, 1 humidity chamber filled w moist peat moss, 1 hide on non-basking side
Diet: Primarily grasses/clover (have been growing a tortoise mix from seed), mulberry and hibiscus leaves, hay salad, supplemented w occasional yellow squash and/or spring mix. I add Mazuri tortoise diet or Total Nutrition for Tortoises 3-4x/week. They have a cuttlebone in their enclosure.

I had thought the Mazuri and cuttlebone were adequate for calcium supplementation based on what I'd read (I didn't want to oversupplementing them), but I did start adding calcium and Reptivite to their food about 2 weeks ago since she was still looking poorly. Now I wonder if I miscalculated re omitting the calcium powder before that--although since her clutchmate is thriving, I'm not sure.

I realize this is a very long post, and if you're still reading, thanks. I'm still trying to figure out the optimal things to do for these tortoises, and I'm so concerned about Dora. I know that serious hobbyists often have better info about mysterious ailments than even herp vets, so if any of you have thoughts based on your experiences, I'd be grateful for your advice. Are there conditions that can cause limited uptake of calcium in these tortoises, or have I just made a terrible mistake with this hatchling by inadequately supplementing with calcium?
 

egyptiandan

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It sounds like Dora, at some point in time, got dehydrated. That can greatly affect the uptake of calcium in a tortoise. Very hard, but possible, to pull a young tortoise through this problem.
I'd change your substrate first off. A 70/30 mix of soil to sand is much better than how you have it now.
You really can't over do the calcium with a growing tortoise. Also you can't over do the vitamin D3 in the first year of life. I'd be giving a calcium supplement at every feeding.

Danny
 

Seiryu

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I agree about making it a 70% soil, 30% play sand mix. Too much sand can cause respiratory issues as well (too dry). Do you have a humidity gauge that can check the substrates humidity? If so what is it at?(Not room humidity).

Substrate should be moist, not wet (not wet enough that if you rung it out water would come out, but moist).
 

katebirdrex

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Thanks--that is very helpful, and I'll make that change tonight.

I haven't kept a humidity gauge in their enclosure, but can add one--where should I be trying to keep the humidity %? My impression had been that overall the humidity should be low to prevent resp/fungal infections, but that I should provide a humid microclimate (Dora has rarely taken advantage of that, though it's worth noting that the healthier one has).

I do soak them both 2x/day but it's possible she could have gotten dehydrated at some point; I know now that the rabbit pellets I originally had them on are very drying (and also contribute to resp infections).

Danny, I've gotten the impression that overdoing D3 can also cause problems with calcium metabolism; how much have you found to be beneficial for your hatchlings?

I'll mention your input to my vet shortly when I take her over; will update this thread with anything I learn. Again, thanks so much for the input--and if you have any other ideas, I'd love to hear them. These are great little guys and I want to get her healthy and comfortable.
 

egyptiandan

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I've never had an animal with an over-dose of vitamin D. My calcium supplement has D3 and I soak hatchlings once a week in a mixture of liquid bird vitamins (with D3) and water.
The first year of a tortoises life is the critical period, where everything that happens affects what happens the rest of their lives.

Danny
 

tortoisenerd

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What did the vet say?

Reptaid is an-over-the-counter anti-coccidia, anti-biotic. Olive Leaf, Mustard Seed, Black Seed, Pau D’arco, Cloves, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Alcohol, Distilled Water. (Reptaid.com)

Sounds interesting. I'd love to see more information on this. I'd never give my tort or myself anything that wasn't very thoroughly tested and came with personal recommendations; I can't seem to find anything on this. I would be surprised if this could treat a RI such as antibiotics do. I'm just not a fan of alternative medicine though.

With my research I respectfully disagree with Danny's D3 comment, as much as I respect him (nothing personal!). But this has already been discussed so this is all I have to say. It's your call with the available information to make. I think pure Calcium should supplemented daily for hatchlings in addition to a calcium rich diet and a cuttlebone available, but no D3 if they have UVB.

Best wishes.
 

katebirdrex

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Hi, all:

The vet had a number of thoughts; first and foremost, he agreed with everyone who's posted here that Mazuri is not adequate as a calcium supplement for hatchlings, and since they haven't touched their cuttlebone as far as I can tell, they need more. I've been adding pure Ca to their food daily for a little over a week now and will continue to do so.

He felt that she might still have residual signs of mild URI, so he gave her a ceftazidime injection, which I'll continue to give her every 3 days for a total of 3 doses. He also gave her injections of calcium and vitamin A/D3. I'm to give her Ca injections twice a day for a few days, and he feels by that time she'll have perked up enough to be eating food with powdered supplements again. I hope he's right; she is still extremely lethargic today.

I have changed the soil/sand mixture per your recommendations above, and will continue to keep the ambient humidity level higher overall in their enclosure.

Re the D3 conundrum--my herp vet felt that the MegaRay (160 W at ~18" from the hatchlings) should be providing adequate UV light for D3 production, and that aside from the general vitamin supplement I'm giving several days a week I shouldn't be giving them add'l D3 due to the potential consequences of taking too much. Danny, I'll continue to do some reading on this, but for now I plan to follow his advice on that.

Re ReptAid--I can absolutely understand anyone's reluctance to use this prior to extensive testing in tortoises. Based on discussions with my herp vet (I'd been in touch with him when the URI signs first emerged), I chose to go that route rather than starting them on an AB regimen in part because they were so small and I didn't want to impair their appetites; he supported using it. I'm not someone who believes that just because something is "natural" it's safe, but this was how I chose to proceed for a variety of reasons. I will say that the other hatchling appeared to respond to the Reptaid within 2 days and steadily improved; he now has no signs of URI, nor any of the symptoms of MBD that Dora is showing.

I thank you all again so much for your quick responses and expertise--I am taking it all on board. Would be happy to hear any other thoughts you might have, and I'll let you know how things develop over the course of Dora's treatment.

Best, Kate
 

tortoisenerd

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Sounds great! I hope thing turn around soon for Dora. Sounds like you found an awesome vet; they are an excellent resource to have on hand. Mine will even take questions over the phone, hasn't charged for a visit for a fecal even though she spent time with my tort, and has amazed me with her knowledge on torts even though she also treats birds and ferrets. It's a smelly office! :) I would be interested in more information on ReptAid but of course I respect your decision to do what you think is best for your torts. Sounds like they have a great Mommy. Looking forward to updates. I never like to hear about sick torts; hatchlings are so fragile.

I just realized your name is Kate too! Is it short for Katherine? My birth name is Kate and apparently that is not as common as Kate being short for Katherine.
 

Yvonne G

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Since Vitamin A was included in the injection you're giving the tortoise, you have to be aware of skin problems. An overdose of Vit.A will cause the skin to slough off...bad enough by itself, but then the tortoise's raw parts get infected. So be very aware of any raw-looking spots that might show up on the skin.

Yvonne
 

katebirdrex

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Hi, both:

I'm sad to say that I lost Dora last night. I feel awful, and keep playing over all the mistakes I must have made with her--but the only thing I can do at this point is re-double my efforts to get things right with my other hatchling and the rest of my brood.

Again, thank you all so much for your advice and concern; I really appreciate it and will be sure to keep up with the conversations here so I can continue to do better for my animals. Best, Kate[/quote]
 

Yvonne G

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Aw, geeez, Kate: I'm so sorry! By the time a little tortoise allows you to see that there is something wrong, its already pretty far gone. They're very good at hiding that something is wrong with them. I'm glad you've decided to stick with us. I hope you and your other baby have many, many happy and healthy years together.

Yvonne
 

katebirdrex

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All, thank you so much. I've gone through the better part of a box of tissues over this and plenty of self-recriminations. I appreciate all the good advice, concern, and kindness more than I can say.

Dora's sibling (named Chompy, because he appears to try to eat anything that's put in front of him, including my finger) continues to look very well and eat heartily. My vet will be back from vacation in about 10 days and I'll take him in to be checked but I hope that he's escaped the problems that took such a terrible toll on poor Dora.

We're keeping the ambient humidity in the enclosure much higher than it was with the high-sand mixture we had before, and I hope that will both make the hatchling more comfortable and make him less vulnerable to URI.

I'll keep you guys posted on how he's doing if you like. The rest of our (rather significant) reptile and canine brood is doing very well after a very trying month in which it seemed like everything that could go wrong did. I'm so sorry that I couldn't pull Dora through this, but all one can do in this circumstance is learn from the mistakes and double down on efforts to get it all right.

Wondering whether any of you will be at the TSA conference in St. Louis next month? My partner and I will be there for the first time, and we're really looking forward to it.
 
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