Looking for advice for the 2 Sulcatta tortoise we have! HELP

KristenF45

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Ok- so my husband decided to bring home 2 baby Sulcattas(daughter talked him into it) in March of 2020… so they are about a year and a half. And I don’t think he did his research in the beginning on what to feed them and the owner of the shop told him to feed them improperly(leafy greens, Fruit etc) I finally took it upon myself about four months ago to really dig deep on how to care for these tortoises and it breaks my heart that I feel like we were doing it all wrong. So no I have them eating Timothy hay, with a calcium supplement… I turn their heat lamp off at night(so they can cool) and I only have the UV light on them for a few hours a day. I just started taking them outside recently but they are still really small. Plus I am so busy it’s hard for me to keep track(frankly I’m pissed that the kids just don’t care anymore for them and my husband is too busy to do proper research- so as a mom and an animal lover I have taken it upon myself to try to help them and save them)

it looks like their shells are pyramiding and the female is growing a lot slower than the male.

i’m attaching pictures of the enclosure and also of the tortoises for any advice or help! Thank you in advance!
 

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jeff kushner

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Kudo's to you for diving into the knowledge-base to help your little guys! "Mom" takes over......how many times have you had to do that<LOL>? Don't be angry at the kids for being kids, right? One of my daughters described how she had played with her hamster that very morning when I asked her how he was(wife& I found a cardboard-dry hamster and buried it 2 days earlier). They do that stuff, then we slam them and they learn not to do it again.....

We all start somewhere and sometimes we find that what we thought we wanted, isn't.

My wife and I juggled 3 kids, like yours of course, all doing completely different activities across the county...we used to hi-5 one another on w/e's. We get it and I'm going to suggest something I very rarely ever do....the folks here have never heard me say it but I will say that it's not a crime to find new home(s) for them. You guys are stretched now and if a "pet" is the cause of angst in the family...and it sounds that way, remove it. I'm just trying to objectively look at their futures & yours!

The pics are nice & show the issues.....and you have done your research....smart....and remember one little detail.....with proper care and diet, that they grow, FAST. Go look at the thread in "General Tortoise discussion" named "road trip" to see one a little older....lol

I'm sure that the talent-base here will have ideas for you such as examining the type of light you have, they know a lot more than I do....and I nearly forgot...WTTC!!



jeff
 

Lyn W

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Hi and welcome,
This is the best caresheet you'll find anywhere for sullies that will really help you get everthing right -
If you follow that advice your torts should thrive.

I can't tell from your pictures if there is only one tort in the enclosure but (just in case you don't know this already), torts should never be kept in pairs - no matter what gender, or if siblings etc., they are solitary creatures and find it very stressful sharing enclosed spaces where they can't avoid each other. That stress can cause illness and there will be a bullying issues even from a young age. This starts off with behaviours like staring, following, nudging , being too close and trying to crowd the other tort out of an area, mounting, hogging the food and best basking spots. It eventually becomes more aggressive with barging and biting causing serious injury and even death. So if they don't already have their own enclosures they will need to be separated asap with their own heat and uvb sources etc.

The enclosure in your picture looks a bit on the small side, they need to have plenty of room to wander for digestion and bone health. They grow pretty quickly so the bigger the better. Straw isn't a good substrate because it is too dry and can go mouldy - see the caresheet for better options.

Is the lamp you are using a MVB bulb that gives heat light and uvb? If so they aren't recommended anymore because they dry and damage tort shells causing pyramiding. Many of us use T5 HO tubes for uvb wth separate flood basking bulbs and then a CHE run through a thermostat for night and extra heat when needed. Coiled and cfl type bulbs can damage tort eyes so they shouldn't be used. A CHE just gives heat because torts need darkness to sleep. The clamps you are using is also dangerous and can fail and harm the tort and even cause fires so any lamps should be hung - which is also good for adjusting temps by raising or lowering them.

I can't see any water in the enclosure, torts need a fresh supply of water at all times and a shallow terracotta plant saucer sunk level with the substrate makes a good water dish that is easy for the tort to access and exit.

Please read the caresheet but ask as many questions as you like to clarify things there's always someone here to help.
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Kristin, and welcome to the Forum!

I would go back to the beginning and start all over. Treat your sulcatas like hatchlings. First off, do something with the enclosure to protect your hardwood floors, because the substrate needs to be quite a bit moister than it is, and that will leech through the wood of the enclosure and wreck your floor.

If you can ditch that enclosure and get a couple large plastic totes, that would even be better. You can put the two totes together to make one BIG one. However, it would be even better to set each tortoise up in its own enclosure. It's really not good to have only two together. Three or more sometimes works out ok, but when you have two, you'll have a dominant (bully) and a submissive. This is stressful for both of them.

Even though the tortoises weren't yours to start with, I'm sure you're just gonna' enjoy the heck outta' them once you get them set up properly.
 

Ray--Opo

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Please read the caresheets. You said you let them cool down at night. They should be no cooler than 80° at night. They need bigger separate enclosures. That have tops on them to hold in heat and humidity. Even if use 2 totes together for each and all the correct heating, lighting, substrate and more. That will cost in the 100's of dollars and will only be good at most for another year. Then they will need to be moved outside. With at least 8'x8' enclosures. Which each will cost at least 500 dollars each. Plus your yard will need to be escape proof with plenty of room for them to roam and be separate. Then comes to the feeding. As they get bigger they eat more. I am just giving you the reality. Please no more fruit! The sugar is to hard on their digestive system and burns up the kidneys. These gorgeous animals take a investment in time and money. Look into the future and if that seems a little much. I would try to rehome them or find a tortoise rescue sanctuary.
All these changes need to be done now. At the moment those 2 sullies are dying. I wish you all the luck and please keep asking questions. The caresheets are important!
 

Tom

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Ok- so my husband decided to bring home 2 baby Sulcattas(daughter talked him into it) in March of 2020… so they are about a year and a half. And I don’t think he did his research in the beginning on what to feed them and the owner of the shop told him to feed them improperly(leafy greens, Fruit etc) I finally took it upon myself about four months ago to really dig deep on how to care for these tortoises and it breaks my heart that I feel like we were doing it all wrong. So no I have them eating Timothy hay, with a calcium supplement… I turn their heat lamp off at night(so they can cool) and I only have the UV light on them for a few hours a day. I just started taking them outside recently but they are still really small. Plus I am so busy it’s hard for me to keep track(frankly I’m pissed that the kids just don’t care anymore for them and my husband is too busy to do proper research- so as a mom and an animal lover I have taken it upon myself to try to help them and save them)

it looks like their shells are pyramiding and the female is growing a lot slower than the male.

i’m attaching pictures of the enclosure and also of the tortoises for any advice or help! Thank you in advance!
Unfortunately, most of the info found for this species is wrong. You've found all the old wrong info. Hay is for larger tortoises, not babies. There should NOT be a night time cool down for this species unless you are taking about cooling from 92 down to 80.

All the right info is in the care sheet Lyn linked. Read that and come back with all your questions.
 

KristenF45

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Oct 26, 2021
Messages
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Location (City and/or State)
California
Kudo's to you for diving into the knowledge-base to help your little guys! "Mom" takes over......how many times have you had to do that<LOL>? Don't be angry at the kids for being kids, right? One of my daughters described how she had played with her hamster that very morning when I asked her how he was(wife& I found a cardboard-dry hamster and buried it 2 days earlier). They do that stuff, then we slam them and they learn not to do it again.....

We all start somewhere and sometimes we find that what we thought we wanted, isn't.

My wife and I juggled 3 kids, like yours of course, all doing completely different activities across the county...we used to hi-5 one another on w/e's. We get it and I'm going to suggest something I very rarely ever do....the folks here have never heard me say it but I will say that it's not a crime to find new home(s) for them. You guys are stretched now and if a "pet" is the cause of angst in the family...and it sounds that way, remove it. I'm just trying to objectively look at their futures & yours!

The pics are nice & show the issues.....and you have done your research....smart....and remember one little detail.....with proper care and diet, that they grow, FAST. Go look at the thread in "General Tortoise discussion" named "road trip" to see one a little older....lol

I'm sure that the talent-base here will have ideas for you such as examining the type of light you have, they know a lot more than I do....and I nearly forgot...WTTC!!



jeff
Thank you for the encouraging words!!!
 

KristenF45

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Hi and welcome,
This is the best caresheet you'll find anywhere for sullies that will really help you get everthing right -
If you follow that advice your torts should thrive.

I can't tell from your pictures if there is only one tort in the enclosure but (just in case you don't know this already), torts should never be kept in pairs - no matter what gender, or if siblings etc., they are solitary creatures and find it very stressful sharing enclosed spaces where they can't avoid each other. That stress can cause illness and there will be a bullying issues even from a young age. This starts off with behaviours like staring, following, nudging , being too close and trying to crowd the other tort out of an area, mounting, hogging the food and best basking spots. It eventually becomes more aggressive with barging and biting causing serious injury and even death. So if they don't already have their own enclosures they will need to be separated asap with their own heat and uvb sources etc.

The enclosure in your picture looks a bit on the small side, they need to have plenty of room to wander for digestion and bone health. They grow pretty quickly so the bigger the better. Straw isn't a good substrate because it is too dry and can go mouldy - see the caresheet for better options.

Is the lamp you are using a MVB bulb that gives heat light and uvb? If so they aren't recommended anymore because they dry and damage tort shells causing pyramiding. Many of us use T5 HO tubes for uvb wth separate flood basking bulbs and then a CHE run through a thermostat for night and extra heat when needed. Coiled and cfl type bulbs can damage tort eyes so they shouldn't be used. A CHE just gives heat because torts need darkness to sleep. The clamps you are using is also dangerous and can fail and harm the tort and even cause fires so any lamps should be hung - which is also good for adjusting temps by raising or lowering them.

I can't see any water in the enclosure, torts need a fresh supply of water at all times and a shallow terracotta plant saucer sunk level with the substrate makes a good water dish that is easy for the tort to access and exit.

Please read the caresheet but ask as many questions as you like to clarify things there's always someone here to help.
Thank you so much for this… this is so overwhelming for me. We do have two of them in there since he got them. Is it ok if I get a larger enclosure with two sides for them to each go to? I use eco earth loose coconut fiber and forest floor cypress mulch. That is Timothy hay that you see all over.. I will clean the cage again and take all that hay out. I am realizing I need to keep it more humid in there so I will do that and add a humid hide. I take them outside once or twice a week to roam our backyard(no chemicals) . Are they still considered babies? If so- that means I shouldn’t run the temp down? ? we have water in the enclosure.. pic attached also attaching the heat bulb and Uv light… I am trying to talk my husband into letting me rehome them because this is too much for us. I am in Northern California.. is there any place you know that can take them in? I feel like crying
 

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Lyn W

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Thank you so much for this… this is so overwhelming for me. We do have two of them in there since he got them. Is it ok if I get a larger enclosure with two sides for them to each go to? I use eco earth loose coconut fiber and forest floor cypress mulch. That is Timothy hay that you see all over.. I will clean the cage again and take all that hay out. I am realizing I need to keep it more humid in there so I will do that and add a humid hide. I take them outside once or twice a week to roam our backyard(no chemicals) . Are they still considered babies? If so- that means I shouldn’t run the temp down? ? we have water in the enclosure.. pic attached also attaching the heat bulb and Uv light… I am trying to talk my husband into letting me rehome them because this is too much for us. I am in Northern California.. is there any place you know that can take them in? I feel like crying
It is very overwhelming to find out you've been given the wrong information. Most of us have done that and had to make changes because when you take on any animal you are committed to care for them properly and with torts there's more to it than you think and also quite expensive to set them up with the right lights, and uvb sources and heat.
I have a leopard tortoise and was quite shocked at what was involved. Like the Sulcata he isn't a hibernating species so has to have the correct temps all winter. Since I have had him my bills have shot up because they must have warmth 24/7 or they will get very sick and reptile vets aren't cheap.
At 9 inches long in 2014 my leopard was too big for a viv or enclosure so he has had his own room for the last 7 years - he is now 14 inches long. You are going to have to plan how you will house 2 large sullies overwinter. They grow much quicker, bigger and stronger than leopards.
There are ways of doing it successfully as Yvonne G suggested, but you have to be prepared to buy 2 lots of everything.

2 enclosures will be best, if they can't avoid each other the stress can seriously affect them and they'll have miserable lives especially the one on the receiving end. The temps shouldn't drop at night but the caresheet will tell you all about that.
The CHE (black bulb) you have needs to be run through a thermostat which will turn the heat on and off and keep the temps even to make sure the torts don't overheat or get too cold.

Maybe it would be best if you can rehome them or at least one, then you can focus on him/her.
Yvonne G is in CA and may be able to help you but I don't know how far away she is from you.
I'm in the UK so can't help other than to suggest you start a rehoming thread but make sure you only offer to long term active members, because sadly there are some people who only join to get free torts to sell on for profit.
Good luck - it's good to know you want to make changes for the benefit of the torts.
 
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Ray--Opo

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Thank you so much for this… this is so overwhelming for me. We do have two of them in there since he got them. Is it ok if I get a larger enclosure with two sides for them to each go to? I use eco earth loose coconut fiber and forest floor cypress mulch. That is Timothy hay that you see all over.. I will clean the cage again and take all that hay out. I am realizing I need to keep it more humid in there so I will do that and add a humid hide. I take them outside once or twice a week to roam our backyard(no chemicals) . Are they still considered babies? If so- that means I shouldn’t run the temp down? ? we have water in the enclosure.. pic attached also attaching the heat bulb and Uv light… I am trying to talk my husband into letting me rehome them because this is too much for us. I am in Northern California.. is there any place you know that can take them in? I feel like crying
The coco coir should be mixed with water to the point that you can squeeze a handful and it should stay in a clump without a lot of water dripping from your hand. Pack that 3 or 4 inches and top off with 2 " of soaked cypress mulch. A big container with a wood roof frame. So you can contain the lights and heaters in under a plastic tent would work for now. Anything to split them up and get a sustainable enclosure. Remember no cooler than 80° at anytime. I think @Yvonne G has a pic of a tented enclosure.
 

KristenF45

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Hi Kristin, and welcome to the Forum!

I would go back to the beginning and start all over. Treat your sulcatas like hatchlings. First off, do something with the enclosure to protect your hardwood floors, because the substrate needs to be quite a bit moister than it is, and that will leech through the wood of the enclosure and wreck your floor.

If you can ditch that enclosure and get a couple large plastic totes, that would even be better. You can put the two totes together to make one BIG one. However, it would be even better to set each tortoise up in its own enclosure. It's really not good to have only two together. Three or more sometimes works out ok, but when you have two, you'll have a dominant (bully) and a submissive. This is stressful for both of them.

Even though the tortoises weren't yours to start with, I'm sure you're just gonna' enjoy the heck outta' them once you get them set up properly.
Thank you! I’m going to look to rehome them because I think this is too much of an undertaking for our family! But until then I want to make sure they are healthy and happy. When you say plastic totes.. what does that mean? Where can I get them?
 

KristenF45

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Hi Kristin, and welcome to the Forum!

I would go back to the beginning and start all over. Treat your sulcatas like hatchlings. First off, do something with the enclosure to protect your hardwood floors, because the substrate needs to be quite a bit moister than it is, and that will leech through the wood of the enclosure and wreck your floor.

If you can ditch that enclosure and get a couple large plastic totes, that would even be better. You can put the two totes together to make one BIG one. However, it would be even better to set each tortoise up in its own enclosure. It's really not good to have only two together. Three or more sometimes works out ok, but when you have two, you'll have a dominant (bully) and a submissive. This is stressful for both of them.

Even though the tortoises weren't yours to start with, I'm sure you're just gonna' enjoy the heck outta' them once you get them set up properly.
Do you mean a tote like this? And do I keep the lid on?
 

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Yvonne G

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Do you mean a tote like this? And do I keep the lid on?
Yes, but with taller sides. You want more floor space, but tall sides they can't climb out of. And if you keep the lids on and cut holes for the lights to shine through, it keeps the moist, warm air inside. You'll need to hang the lights from a stand to maintain the correct height. And wrap the edges of the holes with foil.
 

KristenF45

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The coco coir should be mixed with water to the point that you can squeeze a handful and it should stay in a clump without a lot of water dripping from your hand. Pack that 3 or 4 inches and top off with 2 " of soaked cypress mulch. A big container with a wood roof frame. So you can contain the lights and heaters in under a plastic tent would work for now. Anything to split them up and get a sustainable enclosure. Remember no cooler than 80° at anytime. I think @Yvonne G has a pic of a tented enclosure.
Ok so I did what @Ray--Opo suggested and now the humidity is 85% in the “sleeping” area(that is where the big guy hangs mostly. Here are updated pics. I’m also no longer going to give them Timothy Hay since you guys said they are still too you h for that.. so I’m picking grass from my yard(not chemically treated) … I reached out an organization to help rehome them in Bakersfield. I don’t have time to get the separate tote today but I will tomorrow! @Yvonne G
 

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Ray--Opo

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Ok so I did what @Ray--Opo suggested and now the humidity is 85% in the “sleeping” area(that is where the big guy hangs mostly. Here are updated pics. I’m also no longer going to give them Timothy Hay since you guys said they are still too you h for that.. so I’m picking grass from my yard(not chemically treated) … I reached out an organization to help rehome them in Bakersfield. I don’t have time to get the separate tote today but I will tomorrow! @Yvonne G
Is there a way you can cover the top with tin foil or one of those tin trays you put in your oven at the bottom to catch food drippings? I noticed a wire mesh on top. One thing I forgot was to pack the coco coir. Also don't forget the soaking of your torts in warm water like I explained. Maybe look online for a small bag of Mazuri 5m21 Reptile pellet diet. Try to get the 5m21, the other option is mazuri LS. The torts prefer the 5m21. If you have a problem finding it. Let me know, I just bought a new 25lb bag. I can send you a gallon ziploc of it. You only feed twice a week maybe 4 or 5 pellets. Soaked a little bit just to soften them a little. At this point you could get some store bought food. Dandelion, turnip or mustard greens. Romaine lettuce or other types of lettuce except iceberg.
 

zovick

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Do you mean a tote like this? And do I keep the lid on?
A Christmas tree storage bin might be a good item to get. They are larger than the tote in the pic you showed and with higher sides but they still have a top to help keep in the humidity.
 

KristenF45

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Is there a way you can cover the top with tin foil or one of those tin trays you put in your oven at the bottom to catch food drippings? I noticed a wire mesh on top. One thing I forgot was to pack the coco coir. Also don't forget the soaking of your torts in warm water like I explained. Maybe look online for a small bag of Mazuri 5m21 Reptile pellet diet. Try to get the 5m21, the other option is mazuri LS. The torts prefer the 5m21. If you have a problem finding it. Let me know, I just bought a new 25lb bag. I can send you a gallon ziploc of it. You only feed twice a week maybe 4 or 5 pellets. Soaked a little bit just to soften them a little. At this point you could get some store bought food. Dandelion, turnip or mustard greens. Romaine lettuce or other types of lettuce except iceberg.
So I was reading the guide from @Yvonne G that Tom wrote

"If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole as your main staples. Add in arugula, cilantro, kale, collard, mustard and turnip greens, squash leaves, spring mix, romaine, green or red leaf lettuce, butter lettuce, water cress, carrot tops, celery tops, bok choy, and whatever other greens you can find. If you mix in some of the aforementioned amendments, these grocery store foods will offer plenty of variety and fiber and be able to meet your tortoises nutritional needs just fine" I thought that you shouldn't feed Sulcata's this type of diet and they should stick strictly to grass, weeds etc... HELP me understand!
 

KristenF45

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A Christmas tree storage bin might be a good item to get. They are larger than the tote in the pic you showed and with higher sides but they still have a top to help keep in the humidity.
And what about the air they breathe? They won't suffocate with the lid on(minus the holes for the UV lights, basking lamp/CHU?
 

KristenF45

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Hi Kristin, and welcome to the Forum!

I would go back to the beginning and start all over. Treat your sulcatas like hatchlings. First off, do something with the enclosure to protect your hardwood floors, because the substrate needs to be quite a bit moister than it is, and that will leech through the wood of the enclosure and wreck your floor.

If you can ditch that enclosure and get a couple large plastic totes, that would even be better. You can put the two totes together to make one BIG one. However, it would be even better to set each tortoise up in its own enclosure. It's really not good to have only two together. Three or more sometimes works out ok, but when you have two, you'll have a dominant (bully) and a submissive. This is stressful for both of them.

Even though the tortoises weren't yours to start with, I'm sure you're just gonna' enjoy the heck outta' them once you get them set up properly.
Hi! So I just ordered a hanging lamp, cuttlebone and these humid hide boxes(see pic attached) for when I separate them. Is this the kind of tub you’re talking about?
 

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zovick

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And what about the air they breathe? They won't suffocate with the lid on(minus the holes for the UV lights, basking lamp/CHU?
There is more than enough air in the storage bin type containers to hold them for at least a day. Plus the air is recirculated/replaced whenever you open the top to soak and/or feed the tortoises, which should happen once daily.

And then there will most likely also be some holes in the top for lighting, etc. as you mentioned.

If you are really concerned about the air, perhaps a little air pump with an air stone which is used to aerate aquarium water could be used to pump fresh air into the bin. Doing that would most likely make it a little harder to keep the humidity up, though.
 
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