Losing all of my tortoises

[tortdad]

Thank you everyone, after this post I put pokey back into his old enclosure under the MVB, and he perked right up and ate the most I have seen him eat for days; it was only cucumber for now, but I am going to try and transition him back to his normal diet tomorrow, or over the next few days. I will see how it goes, and let you all know

That's good to hear!!!

 

[jaizei]

Uvb also does not go through screen, at least very little of it.

For the most part, I don't think this is accurate. Window screens may block some of the UVB, but probably not most. Assuming that it'd block 50% of the UVB would be on the higher end and even then a significant amount of UVB could be getting through, depending on the starting amount of UVB.

 

[Yvonne G]

Here's a study in the UK. Scroll down to the section on mesh. It looks like mesh, chicken wire, etc. block out from 15 to 50% of the UV.

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/uvinnature.htm

 

[wellington]

For the most part, I don't think this is accurate. Window screens may block some of the UVB, but probably not most. Assuming that it'd block 50% of the UVB would be on the higher end and even then a significant amount of UVB could be getting through, depending on the starting amount of UVB.

Well, that is what I,have always been told by the experienced keepers on here and also on other reptile sites. I don't have a meter to suggest otherwise, so I don't suggest counting on enough going through a screen.

 

[wellington]

Well, that is what I,have always been told by the experienced keepers on here and also on other reptile sites. I don't have a meter to suggest otherwise, so I don't suggest counting on enough going through a screen.

According to the link by Yvonne, screen does block a lot of uvb. Any tort sitting in a window won't get much benefit.

 

[jaizei]

According to the link by Yvonne, screen does block a lot of uvb. Any tort sitting in a window won't get much benefit.

Suppose in direct sun there is 200 µW/cm2; assuming 50% block rate that would mean there could be 100 µW/cm2 getting through the screen. More than likely, that is a higher level of UVB (probably with a lower UVI) than the bulbs most of you are using. And you don't see the benefit of it?

 

[jaizei]

Suppose in direct sun there is 200 µW/cm2; assuming 50% block rate that would mean there could be 100 µW/cm2 getting through the screen. More than likely, that is a higher level of UVB (probably with a lower UVI) than the bulbs most of you are using. And you don't see the benefit of it?

Of course, there is no guarantee; depending on variables (location, season, time of day, etc) the level of UVB in direct sun can vary greatly.

 

[wellington]

Well, no I don't. If it is nice enough to open your window and have the sun come through your screen, then most likely it's warm enough to get them outside.

 

[Tom]

...and I will not accept that they all had 'hatchling failure syndrome' since two of them were from a very good breeder, and they have always had access to water, hides and cooler spots if need be.

The above sentence tells several stories.

Why will you not accept this? Were the babies from the very good breeder soaked daily? Were they on damp substrate with moderate or high humidity and a humid hide available? There are very few breeders over here that start them correctly. I have not yet heard of any breeders in the UK that start them correctly. And by the way, it should be called "Breeder Failure Syndrome", as none of this was your hatchling's fault.

Access to water does not guarantee the tortoise were drinking it or staying hydrated. Many people use inappropriate water bowls and they sit untouched. Also, just having a water bowl in an other wise overly dry enclosure does not guarantee the tortoise will receive adequate hydration. Here is an analogy: If you walked all day through the Sahara desert and drank your whole canteen, do you think you'd be hydrated enough? Probably not. You'd need several canteens. By contrast, how much water would you need on walk through an Oregon coastal forrest. I'll bet that one canteen would be enough to get you through the day.

What do hides and cooler spots have to do with chronic dehydration?

Chronic dehydration frequently takes months to kill them. They will be eating and acting totally normal the whole time. Further, closed chambers do not have anything to do with MBD. They don't prevent it, and they don't cause it. Same for open topped enclosures too. However, do you know what one of the symptoms of early chronic dehydration is? MBD and a "squishy" plastron. Its caused by organ failure. Their organs can't process the calcium or D3 even when they are getting enough of both and they are under adequate UV sources. Lots of hatchling tortoises that are raised outside in the sun in warm climates die of this chronic dehydration related disorder. The soft plastron and MBD symptoms are the result of not enough water early in life, not lack of calcium and UV.

I took the time to elaborate on all of this because I think you are drawing incorrect conclusions about what has gone on. If putting your tortoises in a Viv somehow contributed to them getting sick, then something was terribly wrong with the Viv, the temps, or something to do with the set up.

Here will be a telling detail: What did your tortoises weigh when you got them? How old were they then, and how old are they now? What is their current weight? One of the tell tale signs of "Breeder Failure Syndrome" is lack of growth, or stalling of growth at around 48-50 grams.

The really sad thing in all of this is that, if your problems really are due to chronic dehydration issues from when they were new hatchlings, then nothing you have done or will do will save them. No amount of money spent at the vet will save them. Neither type of enclosure will save them. I have watched many people go through this and it is absolutely heartbreaking.

So before you dismiss the possibility of HFS, can you tell us about their weights and what exactly happened, or didn't happen, at each of the breeder's places?

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Tom shared and explained things perfectly.

I'm sorry you are experiencing this but it really does sound like Breeder Failure Syndrome.
Tom, I'm stealing that term... sadly it's a perfect fit for the "condition".

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Here's a study in the UK. Scroll down to the section on mesh. It looks like mesh, chicken wire, etc. block out from 15 to 50% of the UV.

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/uvinnature.htm

I thought we came here for the advice and to work with others that love torts . Not to slam others with open end or broad statements so why not just look smarter then some are and say thank you Yvonne for the great info.

 

[Millerlite]

Hopefully being out of the close chamber will get him back to eating and healthy. Keep us posted

Kyle

 

[jeffjeff]

The above sentence tells several stories.

Why will you not accept this? Were the babies from the very good breeder soaked daily? Were they on damp substrate with moderate or high humidity and a humid hide available? There are very few breeders over here that start them correctly. I have not yet heard of any breeders in the UK that start them correctly. And by the way, it should be called "Breeder Failure Syndrome", as none of this was your hatchling's fault.

Access to water does not guarantee the tortoise were drinking it or staying hydrated. Many people use inappropriate water bowls and they sit untouched. Also, just having a water bowl in an other wise overly dry enclosure does not guarantee the tortoise will receive adequate hydration. Here is an analogy: If you walked all day through the Sahara desert and drank your whole canteen, do you think you'd be hydrated enough? Probably not. You'd need several canteens. By contrast, how much water would you need on walk through an Oregon coastal forrest. I'll bet that one canteen would be enough to get you through the day.

What do hides and cooler spots have to do with chronic dehydration?

Chronic dehydration frequently takes months to kill them. They will be eating and acting totally normal the whole time. Further, closed chambers do not have anything to do with MBD. They don't prevent it, and they don't cause it. Same for open topped enclosures too. However, do you know what one of the symptoms of early chronic dehydration is? MBD and a "squishy" plastron. Its caused by organ failure. Their organs can't process the calcium or D3 even when they are getting enough of both and they are under adequate UV sources. Lots of hatchling tortoises that are raised outside in the sun in warm climates die of this chronic dehydration related disorder. The soft plastron and MBD symptoms are the result of not enough water early in life, not lack of calcium and UV.

I took the time to elaborate on all of this because I think you are drawing incorrect conclusions about what has gone on. If putting your tortoises in a Viv somehow contributed to them getting sick, then something was terribly wrong with the Viv, the temps, or something to do with the set up.

Here will be a telling detail: What did your tortoises weigh when you got them? How old were they then, and how old are they now? What is their current weight? One of the tell tale signs of "Breeder Failure Syndrome" is lack of growth, or stalling of growth at around 48-50 grams.

The really sad thing in all of this is that, if your problems really are due to chronic dehydration issues from when they were new hatchlings, then nothing you have done or will do will save them. No amount of money spent at the vet will save them. Neither type of enclosure will save them. I have watched many people go through this and it is absolutely heartbreaking.

So before you dismiss the possibility of HFS, can you tell us about their weights and what exactly happened, or didn't happen, at each of the breeder's places?

i'm just wondering, say you bought a tort and later learned or suspected that it didn't have the best start, at what age/weight would you think hfs was unlikely to be an issue? it kind of worries me as i read they act normal for a long time before showing signs of being ill.

 

[Odin's Gma]

Suppose in direct sun there is 200 µW/cm2; assuming 50% block rate that would mean there could be 100 µW/cm2 getting through the screen. More than likely, that is a higher level of UVB (probably with a lower UVI) than the bulbs most of you are using. And you don't see the benefit of it?

I do, and I can tell you that Odin (sulcata) loves his time in the sunny dining room. He is always bright-eyed and full of energy during and afterward, so regardless of how much or how little UVB he is getting it's a good thing and we intend to continue it.

 

[Tom]

i'm just wondering, say you bought a tort and later learned or suspected that it didn't have the best start, at what age/weight would you think hfs was unlikely to be an issue? it kind of worries me as i read they act normal for a long time before showing signs of being ill.

Generally speaking, if a hatchling sulcata grows steadily and reaches 100 grams, you can rule out chronic hatchling dehydration as an issue. I have not seen a case of a sulcata hatchling being cared for properly reaching this size and then succumbing to these issues.

 

[Tom]

I thought we came here for the advice and to work with others that love torts . Not to slam others with open end or broad statements so why not just look smarter then some are and say thank you Yvonne for the great info.

Who and what are you talking about? I see no one in this thread slamming anyone. Are you talking about refuting incorrect assumptions? If a person is acting on incorrect assumptions, isn't explaining what might be going on helpful?

 

[jskahn]

I am just curious, have you checked the humidity? There is such a thing as too humid

 

[jeffjeff]

Generally speaking, if a hatchling sulcata grows steadily and reaches 100 grams, you can rule out chronic hatchling dehydration as an issue. I have not seen a case of a sulcata hatchling being cared for properly reaching this size and then succumbing to these issues.

thankyou.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Suppose in direct sun there is 200 µW/cm2; assuming 50% block rate that would mean there could be 100 µW/cm2 getting through the screen. More than likely, that is a higher level of UVB (probably with a lower UVI) than the bulbs most of you are using. And you don't see the benefit of it?

@ Tom
I'm sorry I don't think this is polite or needed " the bulbs most of you are using "

 

[Tom]

@ Tom
I'm sorry I don't think this is polite or needed " the bulbs most of you are using "

Thank you for the clarification Grandpa. I did not know what you were referring to.