Losing all of my tortoises

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Thank you for the clarification Grandpa. I did not know what you were referring to.

Know I was being vage be I really didn't want to single anyone out . But I was too vage . But have a great tort day

 

[crimson_lotus]

I agree with Tom, you cannot rule out HFS just because you purchased from a "reputable" breeder. The older ways they used to keep tortoises (and their hatchlings) were in dry conditions. I actually watched one of Tom's presentations in the media section and he was saying when he started out in the 1980's, every breeder he spoke to told him to start them dry. We are still learning a lot about tortoises and we are learning that the "old" way isn't indefinitely the right way when it comes to breeding, environment, foods, etc.

So you really do have to talk to your breeder and ask questions. They may have been breeding their tortoises the same way for 50 years without changing a single thing and going off of 50 year old information.

This is just my input, I don't think you should rule out your breeder just yet.

 

[ascott]

I posted on here a while ago regarding my Sulcata tortoise Flower, who wasn't doing so great, (probably as a result of being dehydrated at the pet shop I bought her from) and I received some great advice on how to best house my more tropical torts (closed chamber set up). Since setting her up in a vivarium, aswell as my other Sulcata Crash and my Leopard tortoise, Pokey, I have lost her, (she died in the night) which was wholly unexpected since she started getting better. Pokey and Crash beforehand were healthy, happy little torts who were very greedy and active, and since being moved into a vivarium are sluggish and withdrawn. I would like to point out that all the temps are perfect, it is very humid, they have two shallow water bowls each, and three hides, as well as fake leaves and plants to hide in; the substrate is coco noir. and they are in separate vivarium's. I have recently spent over £200 at the vets trying to save Crash, who has metabolic bone disease and Pokey is heading the exact same way - I will probably lose him soon. MBD is nearly always caused by not enough UVB and not enough calcium- I would like to point out that I sprinkle a supplement on their diet of freshly cut weeds and grass everyday, and they are under 12% UVB strip lights and a heat bulb on a thermostat. I have ran out of ideas of what to do, I am literally waiting to lose them. It is so frustrating and I sometimes wish I would have just left Pokey and Crash in their plastic runs, with a good old solar glo mercury vapour lamp instead - because that's when they were healthiest. The pain of watching your baby tortoises slip away before you is the hardest thing in the world - especially when everything is how is should be (apparently) in a closed chamber style set up. I have no idea what I am ding wrong anymore, and I will not accept that they all had 'hatchling failure syndrome' since two of them were from a very good breeder, and they have always had access to water, hides and cooler spots if need be. My advice to anyone would be to listen to your tort and maybe the set way of doing things is not always best - it only leads to heartbreak.

I am so tired of hearing this "created" phrase for when a tortoise baby dies....."Hatchling Failure Syndrome" is way too readily tossed around as some eye brow lifting ahh haaa....simple fact (and fact is the word I use due to actual published studies --and not some created phrase by some self proclaimed back yard keepers/breeders) is that some tortoise simply just die....now, with that being said, "I" do not believe that what you have described is due to some silly phrase...

If your torts were doing well in the set up they were in, why was there a drastic change made? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not take my question as a poke at you, I promise by no means is that what I feel at all....I simply ask because if the torts were fine, was there a specific "thing" that made you think you needed to change them into a closed wet hot box? While humidity is an essential part of the ENTIRE parts of the tortoise world...it is in no way a cure all--regardless of what garb is being sold....a warm humid hide that is available to a tortoise is fantastic, however a closed chamber is not what you want if that is a fix all....I know I know, seems somehow that notion has run wild and has created some rampant idea to be "the thing"...

I personally do not believe in that much CONSTANT, HIGH humidity in an entire environment...a tortoise simply needs to have the ability to dry out its shell, its lungs its skin----just necessary to offer a balance of health in all aspects of a living creature....while some folks bash the "old way"...the old way has and still does produce some very healthy animals....

I hope you will be able to bring your torts back round, I really do....if it were me (notice I said, if it were me--and me not telling you what you have to do) I would do what I did that was working for the torts....no tort is the same as another, even is the same species.....

Best wishes to you.

 

[TylerStewart]

I am so tired of hearing this "created" phrase for when a tortoise baby dies....."Hatchling Failure Syndrome" is way too readily tossed around as some eye brow lifting ahh haaa....simple fact (and fact is the word I use due to actual published studies --and not some created phrase by some self proclaimed back yard keepers/breeders) is that some tortoise simply just die....now, with that being said, "I" do not believe that what you have described is due to some silly phrase...

If your torts were doing well in the set up they were in, why was there a drastic change made? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not take my question as a poke at you, I promise by no means is that what I feel at all....I simply ask because if the torts were fine, was there a specific "thing" that made you think you needed to change them into a closed wet hot box? While humidity is an essential part of the ENTIRE parts of the tortoise world...it is in no way a cure all--regardless of what garb is being sold....a warm humid hide that is available to a tortoise is fantastic, however a closed chamber is not what you want if that is a fix all....I know I know, seems somehow that notion has run wild and has created some rampant idea to be "the thing"...

I personally do not believe in that much CONSTANT, HIGH humidity in an entire environment...a tortoise simply needs to have the ability to dry out its shell, its lungs its skin----just necessary to offer a balance of health in all aspects of a living creature....while some folks bash the "old way"...the old way has and still does produce some very healthy animals....

I hope you will be able to bring your torts back round, I really do....if it were me (notice I said, if it were me--and me not telling you what you have to do) I would do what I did that was working for the torts....no tort is the same as another, even is the same species.....

Best wishes to you.

Virtual high-five from Las Vegas, Nevada

I'm also on the bandwagon that this 'closed chamber' thing is a risk, and a big risk if you ask me. When a heating element or power goes out (not if; when), the tortoise is stuck in a high humidity environment with temperatures falling fast which is a sure way to start a problem. There's nothing wrong with having a humid hide available and the rest of the enclosure be "natural" humidity. We have raised hundreds of tortoises this way with ::GASP:: smooth shells, as have many, many other people. Tortoises (even small ones) can handle cool temperatures with 'natural' humidity (whatever your house and the enclosure provides them, without artificially forcing anything), but they can't handle 90-100% humidity and 70 degrees, which is sad, because 70 degrees isn't even cold, but it would then be cold enough to create a problem with the tortoise unable to escape from the moisture. You can keep a small humid hide warm with a small heat mat behind or under it, or with a ceramic or red bulb over it. If the heating element quits or burns out, they are able to leave the humid area for a night or two without problems.

I understand that the closed chamber idea has worked for some people, certainly Tom likes it, I just can't figure out how someone could argue that it was anything close to natural. Even if babies spend 95% of their early life in a (more) humid hide (hole in the ground, etc), it's not going to be 90%+ humidity in that hole in the Middle East or the Sahara desert (or Mojave or Sonoran or any other desert), and they would dry out at least once a day as they came out to wander around. Some of the best looking, strongest babies I've ever had were the ones that hatched in their outdoor enclosures that I didn't find for a few months. They look absolutely perfect, and we are obviously in a hot, dry climate with essentially no humidity (less natural rainfall than almost any other city in the US). They don't die two months later from 'chronic dehydration.'

I do believe dehydration is a major killer of baby tortoises, probably the biggest killer, but soaking them 4 to 7 days a week will keep that from happening in all but the hottest, driest environments, if they had no access to a humid hide. In my experience, in an outdoor setting with a few small sources of water (drippers on plants, etc), they have no issues at all with dehydration if you just give them options (shade, sun, moist, dry, underground, above ground, etc) and let nature take its course.

 

[Yvonne G]

I've always thought that each person needs to weigh all the choices and pick which one works best for them and their tortoises in their climate. I give Tom lots of credit for trying to educate and for sharing his trials and errors so we all can raise healthier, prettier tortoises, but Tom's closed chamber just doesn't work for me. I keep my babies in either open-topped Sterlite tubs or open-topped plywood tort tables. I keep the substrate almost wet, and there's a waterer in there for them to wade into if they want to. I also soak them almost daily. This works for me in my climate. I have two 2010 SA leopards that are just as smooth as smooth can be, and the Texas and desert babies I raise to adopt out go to their new homes lookin' pretty darned good. Sometimes, if we're having an exceptionally cold winter, I may have to cover the Sterlite tubs with foil to keep the warm, moist air inside, but this winter I haven't covered them at all. The babies are doing fine.

There really is such a thing as Hatching Failure Syndrome. It's been talked about for many, many years, even before the internet. When I first started out, I joined the National Turtle & Tortoise Society and they talked about it in their newsletter. I believe it was Dr. Jartchow. It may not have anything to do with dehydration, but it is a very real syndrome.

 

[Yvonne G]

@tracey.p : We seem to have gotten off on a tangent. If you'd like me to move all the off topic posts to a thread of their own, I'll be happy to do that for you. Let me know.

 

[TylerStewart]

I agree that some babies just aren't going to make it, it's a natural thing (which is a strong argument to let them hatch out of the ground, where "lesser" babies just don't get out of the nest), just seems like people are so so quick to point every baby that dies at "failure syndrome" rather than "getting to room temperature at 100% humidity" which I think is a much larger problem and tortoise killer than the natural dying of baby tortoises which might be 1%, and likely in the first week or two of life.

 

[Yvonne G]

I agree, Tyler. Most of the "help me" threads posted by newbies can be traced back to allowing the baby to get too cold.

 

[Octavious22]

Interesting very good info here.

 

[nootnootbu]

I will point out something I have not seen anyone in this thread mention, which could be a very real problem for your babies. Spagnum moss, while commonly used with tortoises, CAN cause impaction when eaten, and this can cause issues, especially in babies. Regular soaks will help you determine if you have an impaction situation, they will not be pooping if they are impacted.

Also, fake plants can cause the same problem. It looks like food, and torts might eat it. In general, fake plants of any kind within biting reach of any turtle or tortoise is a risk.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I will point out something I have not seen anyone in this thread mention, which could be a very real problem for your babies. Spagnum moss, while commonly used with tortoises, CAN cause impaction when eaten, and this can cause issues, especially in babies. Regular soaks will help you determine if you have an impaction situation, they will not be pooping if they are impacted.

Also, fake plants can cause the same problem. It looks like food, and torts might eat it. In general, fake plants of any kind within biting reach of any turtle or tortoise is a risk.

You are 100% correct and it's unfortunate that no one caught that part.
If that was the OPs issue or not I have no idea. That member hasn't posted since this thread in 2015.
But it's definitely worth mentioning.
Good catch.