Lower jaw gets stuck - any experience of this please

[CleoViolet]

In brief - Im looking after two female 3 year old Greek tortoises. One is very robust and fine, the other is smaller and keeps getting her lower jaw stuck on her plastron when she withdraws her head. Ive taken them to a reptile vet twice for a check up with xrays. The little one had a shadow throughout her colon, so on vets advice shes warm bathed in reptoboost and shes had two vitamin shots and antibiotics. She had swabs taken and yhey were clear. Shes now passed a big gummy urate in her bath and a big poo. Shes peeing and pooing normally. The second xray showed a clear colon, which is great. She eats well but her jaw looks stretched to me. The vet had confirmed her jaw bones looked normal on xray. Has anyone got experience of their tortoise getting lower jaw stuck open in their plastron regularly and do you know why? Her lower beak is not overgrown but it doesnt shut neatly like the other tortoises - it dips at the point its got stuck.

 

[CleoViolet]

Ive posted in Greek tortoises but realised this might be better place to ask. Im looking after two female Greek tortoises about 3 years old. They have lived together since hatching and have a 4ft by 5ft indoor table - I check on them every hour and havent witnessed any bullying behaviour but know this can be a problem. One of them is very robust and in great shape but the other is smaller. I took them to specialist reptile vet for a check up and xrays. The little one had a shadow throughout her colon. She had swabs taken which turned out to be clear. Shes had antibiotic shots and vitamin shots, and daily warm bathing in reptoboost on vets advice - shes passed a big gummy urate in her bath and then a huge poo - shes peeing and pooing normally. Her second xray showed the shadow had cleared. Shes very enthusiastic about food and very friendly. My worry is that her lower jaw gets caught on her plastron when she withdraws her head and she struggles. The beak dips at its point and her mouth doesnt shut neatly like the other tortoises does. I asked the vet about this problem and he confirmec her jaw bones looked normal on xray and her beak wasnt overgrown. Does anyone have experience of their Greek tortoise getting their lower jaw/beak stuck on the plastron? Any advice or opinions please?

 

[Yossarian]

Ive posted in Greek tortoises but realised this might be better place to ask. Im looking after two female Greek tortoises about 3 years old. They have lived together since hatching and have a 4ft by 5ft indoor table - I check on them every hour and havent witnessed any bullying behaviour but know this can be a problem. One of them is very robust and in great shape but the other is smaller. I took them to specialist reptile vet for a check up and xrays. The little one had a shadow throughout her colon. She had swabs taken which turned out to be clear. Shes had antibiotic shots and vitamin shots, and daily warm bathing in reptoboost on vets advice - shes passed a big gummy urate in her bath and then a huge poo - shes peeing and pooing normally. Her second xray showed the shadow had cleared. Shes very enthusiastic about food and very friendly. My worry is that her lower jaw gets caught on her plastron when she withdraws her head and she struggles. The beak dips at its point and her mouth doesnt shut neatly like the other tortoises does. I asked the vet about this problem and he confirmec her jaw bones looked normal on xray and her beak wasnt overgrown. Does anyone have experience of their Greek tortoise getting their lower jaw/beak stuck on the plastron? Any advice or opinions please?

Can you show us some pictures please? Do the torts share an enclosure?

 

[Yossarian]

answered elswhere. @Yvonne G you may want to merge or delete this one I guess.

Lower jaw getting caught on plastron

Ive posted in Greek tortoises but realised this might be better place to ask. Im looking after two female Greek tortoises about 3 years old. They have lived together since hatching and have a 4ft by 5ft indoor table - I check on them every hour and havent witnessed any bullying behaviour but...

www.tortoiseforum.org

 

[CleoViolet]

answered elswhere. @Yvonne G you may want to merge or delete this one I guess.

Lower jaw getting caught on plastron

Ive posted in Greek tortoises but realised this might be better place to ask. Im looking after two female Greek tortoises about 3 years old. They have lived together since hatching and have a 4ft by 5ft indoor table - I check on them every hour and havent witnessed any bullying behaviour but...

www.tortoiseforum.org

They do share an enclosure. Ive spoken to the vet who has said two females who havent shown any bullying behaviour are ok if theres enough space. I gave him a list of their husbandry with ambient temperature, basking temperature, bedding, food and he said its all fine. The one thing ive changed to for the moment is putting down newspaper with edible bedding on top as she was scooping up the substrate with her scoopy shaped lower beak and swallowing it. Im hand feeding her torn up leaves to help with her intake as shes having a bit of trouble tearing some leaves at the moment. Heres a pic of her face and mouth

 

[CleoViolet]

Can you show us some pictures please? Do the torts share an enclosure?

Sorry ive replied to you on the Greek tortoise thread in error. I asked in greek tortoise as im aware tortoises vary between types with beaks, shells etc . Thanks for replying by the way - its really appreciated

 

[Yossarian]

Those photos are not in focus im sorry. Try taking photos a little further back and not in the enclosure, use natural light. We need to be able to see what is happening with its jaw.

The Vet is wrong, the torts need to be seperated. New owners rarely have a good understanding of what constitutes bullying, they often mistake the behaviours for friendship. 2 torts should never be kept together. They can seriously injure each other, and in the long run, normally one tort begins to suffer, doesnt grow as fast, get ill . . . .

 

[CleoViolet]

I will divide the enclosure whilst I get another made. I saw your reply to someonelse about bullying behaviour and I recognise some of the 'space invading' you describe. Thanks for the advice there. I will take more pics and post them of her jaw

 

[CleoViolet]

Do you think the stronger one has done this to her mouth? Have you heard of a tortoise getting their lower jaw caught on their plastron even without being in with another tortoise?

 

[Yossarian]

Do you think the stronger one has done this to her mouth? Have you heard of a tortoise getting their lower jaw caught on their plastron even without being in with another tortoise?

It is possible that the other tort did it, they often try to bite each others faces, there was a recent post where a tort lost an eye. But it is also possible that there is just a problem with the torts jaw, or carapace. usually the carapace is pretty smooth, im struggling to understand what exactly is catching, but even from the fuzzy pics, the lower jaw doesnt look right. There are lots of possibilities, having a good view of the animal will help narrow them down hopefully.

 

[CleoViolet]

Th

It is possible that the other tort did it, they often try to bite each others faces, there was a recent post where a tort lost an eye. But it is also possible that there is just a problem with the torts jaw, or carapace. usually the carapace is pretty smooth, im struggling to understand what exactly is catching, but even from the fuzzy pics, the lower jaw doesnt look right. There are lots of possibilities, having a good view of the animal will help narrow them down hopefully.

The plastron seems to have a slight ridge in it. Only slight though. Ive hand fed her leaves again just a moment ago as she was having a go at a leaf and taking so long to tear it off it seemed unfair to not help. Her mouth isnt quite right. Will try and get clearer pics without bothering her too much

 

[CleoViolet]

She pulls her head in, then when she pushes her head out, her bottom beak gets jammed with her mouth open - does that make more sense? I dont think i described it well

 

[CleoViolet]

Trip back to vet I think. She’s been twice recently but this is not improving.

 

[Yossarian]

The tort appears to be missing a big part of its lower beak, possibly missing jaw bone, im not totally sure. The effect on the top beak has allowed it to grow inward because it does not wear down against the lower. The tort needs a careful beak trim to fix the top. As for the bottom, I dont really know what to say. Maybe @ZenHerper or @Tom or @Yvonne G can offer more advice.

 

[ZenHerper]

The bottom beak seems to have been broken off. If two immature animals entering a rapid-growth phase are housed together, facial bites are common. (Tortoises that appear to be 'snuggling' are actually getting ready to start biting each other...the smaller one gets the worst of it, and can experience health-damaging starvation).

There is significant pyramiding of the carapace. The plastron is curling some, but I'm not sure that a healthy animal could self-injure itself in this way. If there is MBD (metabolic bone disease) softening the bones of the jaw, then a dislocation/fracture in the joint could potentially begin like that, and account for the mouth not closing without a lot of fussing to get it back into place. Hypothetically.

Not sure what's happened/going on there. Not sure the current vet office is educated/experienced enough to help.

Are these animals from a breeder? Or a retailer/re-seller?

 

[ZenHerper]

Short version:

The fact that the lower scales of the beak are missing is currently keeping the face from sliding forward smoothly. Solving the problem of those missing scales may solve the self-displacing if the jaw joints are otherwise healthy.

If the scales grow in and the jaw still pops backward, something more fundamental is going on.

 

[CleoViolet]

I’ve been looking after these tortoises for a few months as we are stuck in a lockdown situation here and I offered. They were with a first owner who gave up one to a family member (the one who is doing well) then the other a few weeks later saying he wasn’t in a position to be able to afford the correct lighting, heating and diet any more. So although they’re hatched at the same time, they’ve had variations in their early care for a while. The little one’s shell was a bit too flexible when she arrived but with calcium/d3 and a uva and uvb a varied vegetarian diet, time outside in the Summer in an enclosure and regular baths, she seemed to be doing well. She’s never been as robust as the other though. The beak problem is recent and I thought that maybe there was the start of MBD when she was younger which could make her more prone now? The vet said he saw no signs of MBD though. The alternative is that it’s a trauma injury from the other tortoise. I’m really keen to put this problem right as she’s an otherwise energetic and curious tortoise who I think could do really well with the right care. I’m extremely fond of her and want to get things right. If it’s been caused by my failure to recognise bullying behaviour from the other tortoise then I feel pretty stupid to be honest

 

[CleoViolet]

Short version:

The fact that the lower scales of the beak are missing is currently keeping the face from sliding forward smoothly. Solving the problem of those missing scales may solve the self-displacing if the jaw joints are otherwise healthy.

If the scales grow in and the jaw still pops backward, something more fundamental is going on.

How do I solve the problem of the missing scales as quickly as possible ?

 

[ZenHerper]

How do I solve the problem of the missing scales as quickly as possible ?

Scales grow back. But it's a problem of figuring out why they've gone missing.

The thing I'm concerned most about is that she was not well-incubated a/or well-started as a hatchling. The deeply pyramided carapace bears this out.

If the jaw has a congenital defect that makes it displace easily, and she's been pulling on her face to move it forward into place, then she may actually have weakened and pulled the scales off.

What you need in the short-term is someone to show you how to get things re-aligned so she does not have to work so hard at repairing her jaw's orientation. And so that she can take in proper calories/nutrients. If the joints keep popping out-and-in, they can become unremittingly damaged...the outlook then would be grave.

Look for reptile rescue groups...they would have a better sense of competent medical support in your area, and may have volunteers in your locality who can help hands-on. For example:

reptilia reptile rescue

Offering a rehoming & rescue service for reptiles, birds and small mammals.

reptiliareptilerescue.co.uk

 

[CleoViolet]

Thanks - thats really helpful. Im surprised that despite two xrays and examinations with a vet, Ive got more info today from you all from just a post and some photos. Im really grateful