Make Your Own Habitat Heater

[TortCrush]

Hi everyone. We have a Russian tortoise who is 20 and have had difficulty heating her tortoise table over the years because of its location. We recently tried some new changes, particularly low-power heaters which you can build yourself and wanted to share in the information in case anyone else has had similar issues or can use the information. While the video primarily deals with heating issues, based on posts I've read on the forum, there might be objections to other care decisions shown in the video such as using orchard grass and coil UV bulbs. Just wanted to let you know that our tortoise vet actually recommended the orchard grass (as we have an older tortoise) and we measure the UV with a Solarmeter (index is consistent 5-6 right underneath, 3-4 within a foot or so, and 1-2 about two feet out). We used to use a 24" tube bulb but had a problem in that we were replacing the bulb every six months but the ballast was going and we couldn't tell. So, finally got an index meter (agree with everyone on the forum that this is well worth the investment) and found the problem. We couldn't find a reliable replacement ballast so switched to the coil bulbs. Not sure about their reliability but time will tell.

Anyway, here is a link to the video in case anyone might want to try experimenting with building low-power, direct current heaters:

As a side note to the video, you can build higher wattage heaters if your enclosure needs it as the Peltier modules come in a variety of ratings.

 

[Tom]

I can appreciate the sentiment here, but this is a complicated solution for a problem that doesn't exist. The solution to needing a warm tortoise environment in a cold room is a large closed chamber, These are easy and cheap to heat because your heat is contained and not drifting up and into the room. A single CHE in a safe fixture, or better yet, a RHP mounted to the ceiling will handle the task with no problem and minimal electricity usage.

Some info for you:
1. Most vets know little about tortoise care. They learn and then parrot the same wrong info that every other source uses. Even vets that keep tortoises. This is no different than any other person who keeps tortoises. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school.
2. Russians are not grass eaters, and using dry hay for substrate is a bad idea because the substrate needs to be damp. Hay can't get damp or it will quickly mold.
3. CFLs for UV are perfectly fine, right up until the day you get one that burns your tortoise's eyes. They should not be used. HO tubes, or the new ZooMed LED UV bars are both safe and effective.
4. Your enclosure is too small. Minimum for an adult Russian is 4x8 feet, and bigger than that would be better.

 

[wellington]

I highly second Tom's post.
Nice of you to share with us. Please take the time to learn from us too.
20 is still quite young for a Russian that can live to 80+.
A proper diet, proper sized enclosure and substrate will do her a lot of good in living that full life.

 

[TortCrush]

I can appreciate the sentiment here, but this is a complicated solution for a problem that doesn't exist. The solution to needing a warm tortoise environment in a cold room is a large closed chamber, These are easy and cheap to heat because your heat is contained and not drifting up and into the room. A single CHE in a safe fixture, or better yet, a RHP mounted to the ceiling will handle the task with no problem and minimal electricity usage.

Some info for you:
1. Most vets know little about tortoise care. They learn and then parrot the same wrong info that every other source uses. Even vets that keep tortoises. This is no different than any other person who keeps tortoises. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school.
2. Russians are not grass eaters, and using dry hay for substrate is a bad idea because the substrate needs to be damp. Hay can't get damp or it will quickly mold.
3. CFLs for UV are perfectly fine, right up until the day you get one that burns your tortoise's eyes. They should not be used. HO tubes, or the new ZooMed LED UV bars are both safe and effective.
4. Your enclosure is too small. Minimum for an adult Russian is 4x8 feet, and bigger than that would be better.

Thank you for your feedback. I can likewise appreciate the sentiment of your reply which is also a complicated solution for a problem which does not exist: Tortoise owners do not need to be tortoise experts providing absolute optimal care every day, just like dog owners do not need to be dog experts providing absolute optimal care every day.. If that were the case, no one would own pets. Pet owners simply need to provide love first of all coupled with safe/acceptable care.

Some info for you:
1. The vet that recommended the orchard grass is a tortoise vet and many tortoise forums state that orchard grass is an acceptable substrate for older tortoises. Orchard grass may not be the optimal substrate but it is safe/acceptable care, especially for older turtles coupled with weekly soaks and outside pen time.
2. 15 square feet is the minimal square feet requirement listed on many tortoise forums. The table is 2.5'x6' including the hide area (a total of 15 square feet). This may not be the optimal size but it is safe/acceptable care, especially coupled with outside pen time.
3. I have read the previous posts on CFLs and I respectfully disagree with the assertion that they are all harmful. All UV bulbs, not just coil bulbs, have the potential to burn if they are not properly distanced and measured (or are a cheap manufactured counterfeit). I'd be interested in reading any data you have on the matter.
4. Finally, I can assure you that ambient air heating is a common problem that exists in many habitats, not just for reptiles, and it can get quite expensive day in a day out, year after year (not just the power costs but the replacement costs). The suggestions shown in the video I posted easily create a closed chamber and at far less cost and power usage than RHP/CHEs. I would be interested in reading any cost and power data you would care to provide. Again, it may not be the most optimal solution from a professional tortoise care perspective but most tortoise owners are not professionals and are looking for simple affordable solutions which allow them to love and care for their pet without having to be absolute professionals.

 

[TortCrush]

Thanks for the welcome Wellington. I have actually been reading and learning from your forum for years so thank you! This is exactly why I finally decided to join. I would hope that it is understood that just because a forum member has a differing opinion than more well-known members, it does not mean that they are not learning from you. I cannot tell you how many posts I have read on different forums from unsuspecting owners of torts who did not know how to care for them and only found out after there was MBD or some other problem. Truth be told, I feel they should not be marketed in pet stores, especially to young children, as trying to keep one in an artificial environment for 80+ years is not optimal, no matter the conditions.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Yeah, just watched the video. Very few people here on the Forum have the requisite skills to construct a few of these McGivered heating elements. It’s a novel approach I guess, but an enclosed tort chamber with a Radiant Heat Panel (or two) attached to the ceiling, along with proper ambient and basking lights will go a long way. The off the shelf solutions at least are known output wattages, I’m not sure about the DIY outputs or their use in highly humid environments like we are attempting to create & maintain.

An RHP or two coupled with a thermostat really works well. That said, the video does bring up a few good points that are constantly discussed here on the Forum.

It’s always good to look at & explore alternate ways to provide optimum conditions for our torts. 🐢🐢

 

[TortCrush]

Yeah, just watched the video. Very few people here on the Forum have the requisite skills to construct a few of these McGivered heating elements. It’s a novel approach I guess, but an enclosed tort chamber with a Radiant Heat Panel (or two) attached to the ceiling, along with proper ambient and basking lights will go a long way. The off the shelf solutions at least are known output wattages, I’m not sure about the DIY outputs or their use in highly humid environments like we are attempting to create & maintain.

An RHP or two coupled with a thermostat really works well. That said, the video does bring up a few good points that are constantly discussed here on the Forum.

It’s always good to look at & explore alternate ways to provide optimum conditions for our torts. 🐢🐢

Thanks, Maro2Bear, for your reply. As shown, I am not sure they are the answer either, but I think they might be the future:

1. They are currently used in a lot of camping equipment and laboratory environments as they both heat and cool (but are way more efficient at heating which is ironic as they were developed for cooling).
2. They are low power so they do not get hot to the touch (always a worry with kids and ceramic emitters/high watt bulbs, especially that have shattered on several occasions). I know that RHPs don't either, its just that most of them are 250W.
3. They look complicated but are very easy to build. In fact, they make a great science project for kids. A thermistor (used in digital thermometers) can also be added for temperature control.

You are correct about humidity concerns if you don't mist, soak, or have water in the enclosure.

I know that many people will not try to build one, but I guess overall, I am hoping that pet supply manufacturers might see the application and start experimenting with them. They could easily manufacture them on a large scale in many different power levels, with or without fans (i.e., simply as heat radiators).

Again, thank you for your feedback and for allowing me to participate in the discussion.

Full Disclosure: I am just a parent who happens to own a tortoise, an incidental tortoise tourist, and have nothing financially to gain by using the technology.

 

[Tom]

Some info for you:
1. The vet that recommended the orchard grass is a tortoise vet and many tortoise forums state that orchard grass is an acceptable substrate for older tortoises. Orchard grass may not be the optimal substrate but it is safe/acceptable care, especially for older turtles coupled with weekly soaks and outside pen time.
2. 15 square feet is the minimal square feet requirement listed on many tortoise forums. The table is 2.5'x6' including the hide area (a total of 15 square feet). This may not be the optimal size but it is safe/acceptable care, especially coupled with outside pen time.
3. I have read the previous posts on CFLs and I respectfully disagree with the assertion that they are all harmful. All UV bulbs, not just coil bulbs, have the potential to burn if they are not properly distanced and measured (or are a cheap manufactured counterfeit). I'd be interested in reading any data you have on the matter.
4. Finally, I can assure you that ambient air heating is a common problem that exists in many habitats, not just for reptiles, and it can get quite expensive day in a day out, year after year (not just the power costs but the replacement costs). The suggestions shown in the video I posted easily create a closed chamber and at far less cost and power usage than RHP/CHEs. I would be interested in reading any cost and power data you would care to provide. Again, it may not be the most optimal solution from a professional tortoise care perspective but most tortoise owners are not professionals and are looking for simple affordable solutions which allow them to love and care for their pet without having to be absolute professionals.

Rebuttal:
1. The vet, and the people on the other tortoise forums, are wrong. I used to be wrong to until I learned otherwise. The world is full of incorrect tortoise care info. We are trying to fix that problem here. Dry dusty substrate is not good for any tortoise of any age or species.
2. 15 sqare feet is too small. Much too small. It will lead to orthopedic problems, constipation and possibly bladder stone formation. This is not black or white. There are many variables at work, and this is very much a "law of averages" situation. You can keep a Russian in a 40 gallon tank and possibly not incur any of these issues. Other people will keep them in a table the size of yours and they do encounter these lack-of-space related issues. Outside pen time is great, but not everyone's climate allows for that.
3. At no time have I or anyone else said that cfl bulbs are "all harmful". Many of them are not harmful at all, but some percentage of them burn reptile eyes. I've seen it myself many times, and my reptile vet friends see it in their practices too. There is no data for this. Who would fund such a study? The bottom line is that there are far better and much safer options available. Keep using those CFLs and you will eventually
4. RHPs and CHEs do NOT burn more power than your home made contraption. When used with a thermostat, as recommended, the rarely even turn on because of the insulation properties of a closed chamber. Yes they burn more power if they are constantly on, but they are not constantly on in a closed chamber. I'm not talking about "professional' tortoise care. I'm talking about what is going to work best and be safest for the average tortoise owner and their pets. You average tortoise keeper is not going to be better off wiring up electrical parts, taping them together and hanging that on the sides of their enclosures. It is far simpler, far safer, and far more effective to plug a safe, UL listed device into a thermostat and mount it correctly from over head. Indeed, the non-professional, regular tortoise keeper is the one who needs the more fool proof solutions.

There is something you don't seem to understand and this will all work better when you do. I alluded to this in my first post above, but allow me to elaborate a bit here:
Almost every source of tortoise care info available in the world is wrong. Vets, books, internet, FB, YT, breeders, "reptile experts", etc... Its been wrong for decades and the same wrong info keeps getting repeated and passed down generation to generation. This is the info you have been exposed to. I was exposed to it too, and so was your vet, the breeders of tortoises, and each and every keeper. It took almost 20 years (1991-2008) of doing it wrong and encountering failure after failure while following all the advice of the day from all of the "experts" for me and a few others to realize that the commonly taught info was wrong and did not work. That began a period of experimentation and exploration that lasts to this day. We've learned a lot along the way, but still have many unanswered questions and more to learn. Each new discovery unearths more questions. It is a journey that I think will never end, and many people have contributed knowledge and experience along the way. We don't know everything, but we do know some things, and that is what I (we) am (are) trying to share with you here. You can have the product of all the years of research, experimentation and study for free if you want it. I've led you to water. Its up to you if you want to drink. Your reaction is totally normal and understandable. It is very common for people to be skeptical when seemingly credible sources have told them otherwise, but I hope to assure you that I am not making this stuff up out of thin air. Questions and skepticism are welcome. I'm happy to explain in more detail.

 

[Tom]

...(always a worry with kids and ceramic emitters/high watt bulbs, especially that have shattered on several occasions). I know that RHPs don't either, its just that most of them are 250W.

You have had CHEs shatter? I've been using them by the dozen since 1991, and still have one of the original Pearlco's that has been in continuous use since 1991 and I have ever seen one shatter. Even when I've accidentally sprayed water on them. They certainly do run very hot, and that is why I've switched to RHPs. My RHPs are 39 watts or 78 watts. Though I know they must exist, I have never seen a 250 watt RHP. A 250 watt RHP is not in common use. Of that, I am certain.

 

[Blackdog1714]

You have had CHEs shatter? I've been using them by the dozen since 1991, and still have one of the original Pearlco's that has been in continuous use since 1991 and I have ever seen one shatter. Even when I've accidentally sprayed water on them. They certainly do run very hot, and that is why I've switched to RHPs. My RHPs are 39 watts or 78 watts. Though I know they must exist, I have never seen a 250 watt RHP. A 250 watt RHP is not in common use. Of that, I am certain.

Please note the last line in the description- heats up to a 12' high ceiling in an 8'x8' room. That is way to powerful. My wooden closed chamber sips electricity with less, on CHE and one RHP for my leopard at 82 degrees. I came here with 💩 for tortoise knowledge and 3 years later have a very hardy Russian and PB leopard that are both captive born. By no means do we know it all, but a few know a bunch. Please don't leave us we just want you to do the best and quite honestly very easiest for your torts,torts ponds, plants and quite a few other creatures

RADIANT CEILING PANELS
2 x 2 Panel 250 Watt Heater 277V
High temperature radiant ceiling panels heat objects, not air Radiant ceiling panels were designed to easily drop into any T-Bar suspended ceiling system or can be surface mounted with optional frames (not included). These ceiling panels have an electric resistance element that is imbedded between two layers of insulation. The high-density thermal insulation above element minimizes heat loss. Heaters are made with textured white powder coat finish. Heat panels include 36L pre-wired flexible cable. Drops into any 2 x 2 T-bar suspended ceiling system. Provides coverage up to 12'H in a 8' x 8' area. cETLus Listed. 1 Year Limited Warranty.

 

[Tom]

Please note the last line in the description- heats up to a 12' high ceiling in an 8'x8' room. That is way to powerful. My wooden closed chamber sips electricity with less, on CHE and one RHP for my leopard at 82 degrees. I came here with 💩 for tortoise knowledge and 3 years later have a very hardy Russian and PB leopard that are both captive born. By no means do we know it all, but a few know a bunch. Please don't leave us we just want you to do the best and quite honestly very easiest for your torts,torts ponds, plants and quite a few other creatures

RADIANT CEILING PANELS
2 x 2 Panel 250 Watt Heater 277V
High temperature radiant ceiling panels heat objects, not air Radiant ceiling panels were designed to easily drop into any T-Bar suspended ceiling system or can be surface mounted with optional frames (not included). These ceiling panels have an electric resistance element that is imbedded between two layers of insulation. The high-density thermal insulation above element minimizes heat loss. Heaters are made with textured white powder coat finish. Heat panels include 36L pre-wired flexible cable. Drops into any 2 x 2 T-bar suspended ceiling system. Provides coverage up to 12'H in a 8' x 8' area. cETLus Listed. 1 Year Limited Warranty.
View attachment 345996

These were common in the Inn rooms when I was in South Africa. They didn't work too well, so I went and bought my own space heater. I HATE being cold at night, unless most normal men who seem to like an open window when there is snow outside.

This seems like it would be over kill inside even a very large closed chamber. My garage gets into the low 50s in winter and two 80 watt panels keep my 3x8 foot closed chambers in the 80s all day and night.

 

[TortCrush]

Rebuttal:
1. The vet, and the people on the other tortoise forums, are wrong. I used to be wrong to until I learned otherwise. The world is full of incorrect tortoise care info. We are trying to fix that problem here. Dry dusty substrate is not good for any tortoise of any age or species.
2. 15 sqare feet is too small. Much too small. It will lead to orthopedic problems, constipation and possibly bladder stone formation. This is not black or white. There are many variables at work, and this is very much a "law of averages" situation. You can keep a Russian in a 40 gallon tank and possibly not incur any of these issues. Other people will keep them in a table the size of yours and they do encounter these lack-of-space related issues. Outside pen time is great, but not everyone's climate allows for that.
3. At no time have I or anyone else said that cfl bulbs are "all harmful". Many of them are not harmful at all, but some percentage of them burn reptile eyes. I've seen it myself many times, and my reptile vet friends see it in their practices too. There is no data for this. Who would fund such a study? The bottom line is that there are far better and much safer options available. Keep using those CFLs and you will eventually
4. RHPs and CHEs do NOT burn more power than your home made contraption. When used with a thermostat, as recommended, the rarely even turn on because of the insulation properties of a closed chamber. Yes they burn more power if they are constantly on, but they are not constantly on in a closed chamber. I'm not talking about "professional' tortoise care. I'm talking about what is going to work best and be safest for the average tortoise owner and their pets. You average tortoise keeper is not going to be better off wiring up electrical parts, taping them together and hanging that on the sides of their enclosures. It is far simpler, far safer, and far more effective to plug a safe, UL listed device into a thermostat and mount it correctly from over head. Indeed, the non-professional, regular tortoise keeper is the one who needs the more fool proof solutions.

There is something you don't seem to understand and this will all work better when you do. I alluded to this in my first post above, but allow me to elaborate a bit here:
Almost every source of tortoise care info available in the world is wrong. Vets, books, internet, FB, YT, breeders, "reptile experts", etc... Its been wrong for decades and the same wrong info keeps getting repeated and passed down generation to generation. This is the info you have been exposed to. I was exposed to it too, and so was your vet, the breeders of tortoises, and each and every keeper. It took almost 20 years (1991-2008) of doing it wrong and encountering failure after failure while following all the advice of the day from all of the "experts" for me and a few others to realize that the commonly taught info was wrong and did not work. That began a period of experimentation and exploration that lasts to this day. We've learned a lot along the way, but still have many unanswered questions and more to learn. Each new discovery unearths more questions. It is a journey that I think will never end, and many people have contributed knowledge and experience along the way. We don't know everything, but we do know some things, and that is what I (we) am (are) trying to share with you here. You can have the product of all the years of research, experimentation and study for free if you want it. I've led you to water. Its up to you if you want to drink. Your reaction is totally normal and understandable. It is very common for people to be skeptical when seemingly credible sources have told them otherwise, but I hope to assure you that I am not making this stuff up out of thin air. Questions and skepticism are welcome. I'm happy to explain in more detail

Thanks for your reply. I definitely commend you on all the hard work and effort you have put in over the years and have no doubt that there is definitely an optimal way to care for tortoises. I am sorry to have bothered you with my input and wish you all the best!

 

[TortCrush]

Please note the last line in the description- heats up to a 12' high ceiling in an 8'x8' room. That is way to powerful. My wooden closed chamber sips electricity with less, on CHE and one RHP for my leopard at 82 degrees. I came here with 💩 for tortoise knowledge and 3 years later have a very hardy Russian and PB leopard that are both captive born. By no means do we know it all, but a few know a bunch. Please don't leave us we just want you to do the best and quite honestly very easiest for your torts,torts ponds, plants and quite a few other creatures

RADIANT CEILING PANELS
2 x 2 Panel 250 Watt Heater 277V
High temperature radiant ceiling panels heat objects, not air Radiant ceiling panels were designed to easily drop into any T-Bar suspended ceiling system or can be surface mounted with optional frames (not included). These ceiling panels have an electric resistance element that is imbedded between two layers of insulation. The high-density thermal insulation above element minimizes heat loss. Heaters are made with textured white powder coat finish. Heat panels include 36L pre-wired flexible cable. Drops into any 2 x 2 T-bar suspended ceiling system. Provides coverage up to 12'H in a 8' x 8' area. cETLus Listed. 1 Year Limited Warranty.

Thanks for your reply. I also commend you on all the hard work and effort you have put in over the years and have no doubt that there is definitely an optimal way to care for tortoises. I am sorry to have bothered you with my input and wish you all the best!

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Thanks for your reply. I definitely commend you on all the hard work and effort you have put in over the years and have no doubt that there is definitely an optimal way to care for tortoises. I am sorry to have bothered you with my input and wish you all the best!

What Tom has said is not just his opinion. It's from a culmination of experiences, failures and discovery from the TFO collective.
Most of us do not provide the long and very informative answers that he does. Shame on us.
But what he says is what almost all of us would say if we actually took the time to do so.
Please understand that we want you to be successful and we want your tortoise to have his or her best life possible.
I myself have about 40 years of tortoise keeping experience (Redfoot)
Our members must represent thousands of years of experience. Each of us wants to keep "you" the next guy, from having to start out from the beginning and spend money buying garbage or trying things that we've already tried that didn't work. This forum has information in real time. Not from the yellowing pages of some old books.
Please consider what you've heard here.
All of it was to help. Not offend.
Welcome to the forum.

 

[Tom]

Thanks for your reply. I definitely commend you on all the hard work and effort you have put in over the years and have no doubt that there is definitely an optimal way to care for tortoises. I am sorry to have bothered you with my input and wish you all the best!

I'm not bothered in the least. We are all here for tortoise conversation, and your post sparked some of that. I can guarantee than many people reading this thread found some helpful insight from what has been typed. I hope you do too, and I hope you continue to post.

 

[TortCrush]

You have had CHEs shatter? I've been using them by the dozen since 1991, and still have one of the original Pearlco's that has been in continuous use since 1991 and I have ever seen one shatter. Even when I've accidentally sprayed water on them. They certainly do run very hot, and that is why I've switched to RHPs. My RHPs are 39 watts or 78 watts. Though I know they must exist, I have never seen a 250 watt RHP. A 250 watt RHP is not in common use. Of that, I am certain.

I'm not bothered in the least. We are all here for tortoise conversation, and your post sparked some of that. I can guarantee than many people reading this thread found some helpful insight from what has been typed. I hope you do too, and I hope you continue to post.

I totally understand where you are coming from. I suspect that many of you are breeders and know tortoises like the back of your hand. I meant what I said that this forum has been a lifeline many times over the past 20 years and I am grateful for the information.

My intent in posting was not to offend but possibly to start a conversation about those of us who are not professionals, kind of got thrown in half hazard when our kids were young, and just don't have the drive, time, or space for optimum tortoise care. Perhaps there is a midpoint in care somewhere that can be defined as a secondary level of care, safe and acceptable but not optimum. A level that would allow us to keep a tortoise in an indoor enclosure where we can visibly see them and care for them but in a practical manner such that we can clean the cage and keep it at the correct conditions.

I would be glad to post a video of our tortoise if you would be willing to view it and let me know if anything looks amiss. After reading all of the comments, I am a little worried the care we are providing is not adequate. Please let me know if you would be willing to do this. Thanks so much.

 

[Tom]

I totally understand where you are coming from. I suspect that many of you are breeders and know tortoises like the back of your hand. I meant what I said that this forum has been a lifeline many times over the past 20 years and I am grateful for the information.

My intent in posting was not to offend but possibly to start a conversation about those of us who are not professionals, kind of got thrown in half hazard when our kids were young, and just don't have the drive, time, or space for optimum tortoise care. Perhaps there is a midpoint in care somewhere that can be defined as a secondary level of care, safe and acceptable but not optimum. A level that would allow us to keep a tortoise in an indoor enclosure where we can visibly see them and care for them but in a practical manner such that we can clean the cage and keep it at the correct conditions.

I would be glad to post a video of our tortoise if you would be willing to view it and let me know if anything looks amiss. After reading all of the comments, I am a little worried the care we are providing is not adequate. Please let me know if you would be willing to do this. Thanks so much.

I'd be happy to share my thoughts on your set up. Any criticism will be purely intended to help, not offend or upset.

Our perspectives on this concept of "optimal care" are seemingly quite different and understandably so, given our different backgrounds. In my experience it is the individual pet owner that has the time, interest and resources to make everything as perfect as possible for their cherished pet or small group. The breeder or professional usually has to take a more practical, pragmatic approach. I view the enclosures of some of the members here and I'm in awe of how spectacular they are. In comparison, my enclosures are quite spartan. When I'm caring for 100+ hatchlings and a few dozen adults at a time, everything has to be simple and efficient.

The info I share in my care sheets and on most threads is directed at regular pet owners. Not breeders or professionals. I think everyone should be striving for optimal care. This does not need to be expensive. There are some costs involved, but terra cotta saucers and dishwashing tubs from Walmart are much cheaper than pet store ramped bowls and fancy looking hides. Like wise with the hardware store light bulbs and thermometers. Anyone can buy substrate in bulk and save a ton. To me, optimal care is more about diet, temperatures and hydration. Not so much about how much money gets spent. I tend to employ and recommend equipment and strategies that are effective, easy, simple and safe. How much these items cost isn't relevant to me. I want what is best for the tortoise. If this is a cheap terra cotta saucer, that is great. If it is a more expensive digital proportional thermostat to run my incubator, so be it. Most of what I recommend is based on my practical background and will save people a ton of money, and also yield better results, compared to pet store products.

 

[wellington]

I totally understand where you are coming from. I suspect that many of you are breeders and know tortoises like the back of your hand. I meant what I said that this forum has been a lifeline many times over the past 20 years and I am grateful for the information.

My intent in posting was not to offend but possibly to start a conversation about those of us who are not professionals, kind of got thrown in half hazard when our kids were young, and just don't have the drive, time, or space for optimum tortoise care. Perhaps there is a midpoint in care somewhere that can be defined as a secondary level of care, safe and acceptable but not optimum. A level that would allow us to keep a tortoise in an indoor enclosure where we can visibly see them and care for them but in a practical manner such that we can clean the cage and keep it at the correct conditions.

I would be glad to post a video of our tortoise if you would be willing to view it and let me know if anything looks amiss. After reading all of the comments, I am a little worried the care we are providing is not adequate. Please let me know if you would be willing to do this. Thanks so much.

Understand please that optimal care really doesn't cost more than what you are doing now. Using hay is likely more costly than using orchid bark or coconut coir that if spot clean doesn't have to be changed out as often as the hay. Hay is one thing you won't find in the wild tortoises living on. The other options are closer to what they would be on. Of course we can't replicate everything perfectly but we can as close as possible.
In fact coir can be used for a year or more before needing a complete clean out.
The heating elements Tom talks of may be more costly up front but last a very long time, years.
The too small enclosure, we have seen it here many times over. I rescued a leopard from a too small enclosure and he couldn't walk. It can be very cheap to add on.
Those that want to spend more money can, the enclosures are out there. Those that can't, we can always come up with a cheap/cheaper solution.
I personally always try to find cheap ways for those needing to expand an enclosure that say they can't afford a lot.
Your heat build video, although I could never understand how to build one, could very well help others.
Everyone needs to give optimal care, it doesn't have to be expensive care.
Your thread and input is welcomed.

 

[TortCrush]

Reuse and hardware stores are great. In fact, the tortoise table in the video is an old Sauder book shelf with Wooster Big Ben paint pans dropped in for the burrow pits. The legs are Ikea legs from an old table., the shelf is an old closet shelf, and the poster frames are old Ikea frames. We joke that our basement is the "Room of Requirement". We built the table when she was 10 after someone accidentally dropped a bag of softener salt down the stairs and smashed the 150G terrarium .

I totally get that the forum is all about optimal care and what is best for the tortoise. I think that's great. So am I. Please also understand that this is not just about cost, time, or the practicality of having or cleaning up after a messy tortoise in your home (it's pretty much all of the above coupled with everything else families have to deal with).

The real question is whether the typical family is capable of caring for such a difficult animal optimally in an artificial environment for 80+ years and my guess is no. Even with the best of efforts, there will be mishaps which could be devastating for the tortoise (such as the ballast problem on our tube UV). At the very least, breeders should make it clear that owners will require a 4' x 8' pen located somewhere in their home that contains dirt, mulch, or grass and will require a very tight 20-degree temperature tolerance along with proper humidity, bedding, diet, etc., for a long, long time (ours did not).

Over the 20 years that I have cared for our tortoise, I have just about every product/method you mentioned and the set up I have shown in the video is what worked for our family. That is why I felt a need to share it on the forum as forums are for sharing our different perspectives. Thank you for your feedback and assistance. Here is a video of our tortoise:

 

[wellington]

Lol, most of what I use to build enclosures etc for mine are all left over stuff. Right now I have a 5 gallon bucket lid screwed in place to fill a gap that my tort took a dive out of lol.
My inside enclosures are not pretty, but they work. That's what I mean, optimal care can be given but doesn't have to be expensive. Accidents and circumstances do arise here and there but they would/could for the tortoise in the wild too. The only real thing none of us can give them is the size territory they would roam in the wild. Most everything else needs to be copied as close as possible.