Male like behavior from one of my torts

[Redstrike]

We were outside today and Coagi was dogging my other two large tortoises (Rafiki is a confirmed egg layer, Mimosa displays very female-like characteristics). Coagi repeatedly would follow the other tort, sniff their rear intently, then come around to their face and bob his(?) head.

The following (Coagi is in the rear):


The head bob:


Here are some anal scute/tail shots:

Rafiki (egg layer, anal scutes very male-like):


Mimosa (suspected female):


Coagi (note fat tail. everything else says female to me):


Mandarin (too small to tell, I think):


Shot of the group with shoe (I'm a 10.5-11) for scale:


I know these are captive conditions, which are far from natural, but I'm having a hard time buying the classic "female anal scutes are acute, males are obtuse". Still much to find out with my tortoises, but they are not conforming well to the standard sexing criteria if Coagi is a male. If you ask me, Rafiki looks very male-like according to the anal scute criterion. Yes-yes, sample size of 2-3...

Thoughts are welcome.

 

[Anyfoot]

My thoughts are.
Rafiki and Coagi have the classic semi circle anal scutes and short tale so female.
Mimosa has the tight v shape anal scutes and short tale so female.
Mimosa looks to me as the tale is starting to get long and the anal scutes could keep heading in the wide V shape, so I'm plumbing for male on Mimosa.
Can't wait until these are all confirmed.

 

[Redstrike]

My thoughts are.
Rafiki and Coagi have the classic semi circle anal scutes and short tale so female.
Mimosa has the tight v shape anal scutes and short tale so female.
Mimosa looks to me as the tale is starting to get long and the anal scutes could keep heading in the wide V shape, so I'm plumbing for male on Mimosa.
Can't wait until these are all confirmed.

You and I see my three large tortoises in the same light. For me Mandarin remains a wildcard.

Thanks Anyfoot!

 

[Anyfoot]

I put Mimosa I meant Mandarin on last one. Mandarin is defo a maybe. Can't wait to see how s/he develops. I was also thinking because the other 3 seem to look a certain on sex maybe the fact Mandarin is not a certain could also suggest male. If s/he was a female would it already be certain like the other 3. Be perfect if you got 3 females and 1 male.

 

[RIO'S MOM]

Beautiful torts, Anyfoot.
Your name made me giggle, cause my Rio thinks ANY foot is a huggable foot.
My Rio had been very amorous with a fake rock on the deck. He's loud and long lasting in his ardor.
I am taking this as a sign that he's a very HAPPY healthy guy.

 

[Pearly]

Coagi's swollen tail maybe due to constipated poo sitting there, or maybe ... egg??? If Rafiki they way she looks is a female, than to me Coagi is one too. Now @Anyfoot, I don't really get the last one's being suspected male... Craig could you explain?

 

[Pearly]

You and I see my three large tortoises in the same light. For me Mandarin remains a wildcard.

Thanks Anyfoot!

How old are they? And what sizes/weights? If you don't mind. I keep looking at all the RF pics and those torts look so big, and mine, they just seem so small at 14 months old

 

[allegraf]

I have no clue at all when it is not obvious. Here is Cherry Pie, a "female". Her anal opening has never been large, her tail was shorter and fatter. Has been elongating in the last year. She mounts all the girls and fights with the boys. I am wishing "she" is really a "he". Might just be wishful thinking.

Shoe for size as well-about 10".


Plastron:

Cherry Pie was not amused.

 

[Anyfoot]

Coagi's swollen tail maybe due to constipated poo sitting there, or maybe ... egg??? If Rafiki they way she looks is a female, than to me Coagi is one too. Now @Anyfoot, I don't really get the last one's being suspected male... Craig could you explain?

It could still be either, but we can speculate.
The females usually have either a semi circle, or a 'u' shape or a tight v shape anal scute, this one has neither, the v shape anal scutes look to me as though they are opening up to a wide 'v' shape like a male.
The tail looks like its getting long and pointy like a male too, it swings out further than the end of the anal scute too like a male.
However, the base of the tail is fat like a female, so does this mean the anal scutes will round off in the bottom creating the semi circle. We will see over time.

It's hard to tell from that photo if the anal plate is thickening for a male, if you look at Mimosa, HER anal plate is thin.
I've not watched any reds go from hatchling to sexed adult yet,. It suprises me that I can't find a stage by stage visual on this.
I'm going to take a photo if my neonate from 1 month old and every 3 months after until maturity.

 

[Anyfoot]

I have no clue at all when it is not obvious. Here is Cherry Pie, a "female". Her anal opening has never been large, her tail was shorter and fatter. Has been elongating in the last year. She mounts all the girls and fights with the boys. I am wishing "she" is really a "he". Might just be wishful thinking.View attachment 186490

Shoe for size as well-about 10".
View attachment 186489

Plastron:View attachment 186491View attachment 186492

Cherry Pie was not amused.View attachment 186493

I'd put money on that being a female. She's gorgeous to. She has the same concave plastron , colors and anal scute shape as my Edna.

 

[Redstrike]

@Pearly my tortoises are 4 & 5 years old. Coagi's tail is chronically fat, but I've thought similarly re: constipation or egg(s). I'm still not convinced s/he is a male. I was fairly certain female but recent behavior is indicative of the contrary. Of course, this could also simply be dominance behavior but it seems strange to assert this while they're outside on 1/4 acre to roam. Curious...

@allegraf - Cherry Pie reminds me of Rafiki. I see some plastron concavity in that tortoise and Rafiki has some of that too. I think there's more to the masculinization of female redfoots in captivity than is given credit. I could see Cherry Pie going either way, much like Rafiki was for me until she started digging and laying eggs.

@Anyfoot - I'm with you with the anal scute thickness. I like the cut of your jib, sir. We seem to view things through a similar lens.

 

[Pearly]

It could still be either, but we can speculate.
The females usually have either a semi circle, or a 'u' shape or a tight v shape anal scute, this one has neither, the v shape anal scutes look to me as though they are opening up to a wide 'v' shape like a male.
The tail looks like its getting long and pointy like a male too, it swings out further than the end of the anal scute too like a male.
However, the base of the tail is fat like a female, so does this mean the anal scutes will round off in the bottom creating the semi circle. We will see over time.

It's hard to tell from that photo if the anal plate is thickening for a male, if you look at Mimosa, HER anal plate is thin.
I've not watched any reds go from hatchling to sexed adult yet,. It suprises me that I can't find a stage by stage visual on this.
I'm going to take a photo if my neonate from 1 month old and every 3 months after until maturity.

I think this kind of a thread here would be awesome! Thanks Craig

 

[Pearly]

@Pearly my tortoises are 4 & 5 years old. Coagi's tail is chronically fat, but I've thought similarly re: constipation or egg(s). I'm still not convinced s/he is a male. I was fairly certain female but recent behavior is indicative of the contrary. Of course, this could also simply be dominance behavior but it seems strange to assert this while they're outside on 1/4 acre to roam. Curious...

@allegraf - Cherry Pie reminds me of Rafiki. I see some plastron concavity in that tortoise and Rafiki has some of that too. I think there's more to the masculinization of female redfoots in captivity than is given credit. I could see Cherry Pie going either way, much like Rafiki was for me until she started digging and laying eggs.

@Anyfoot - I'm with you with the anal scute thickness. I like the cut of your jib, sir. We seem to view things through a similar lens.

Thanks!

 

[allegraf]

@Pearly my tortoises are 4 & 5 years old. Coagi's tail is chronically fat, but I've thought similarly re: constipation or egg(s). I'm still not convinced s/he is a male. I was fairly certain female but recent behavior is indicative of the contrary. Of course, this could also simply be dominance behavior but it seems strange to assert this while they're outside on 1/4 acre to roam. Curious...

@allegraf - Cherry Pie reminds me of Rafiki. I see some plastron concavity in that tortoise and Rafiki has some of that too. I think there's more to the masculinization of female redfoots in captivity than is given credit. I could see Cherry Pie going either way, much like Rafiki was for me until she started digging and laying eggs.

@Anyfoot - I'm with you with the anal scute thickness. I like the cut of your jib, sir. We seem to view things through a similar lens.

I keep wishing that the tail will grow and grow, Cherry Pie would be an awesome male!

 

[Pearly]

I keep wishing that the tail will grow and grow, Cherry Pie would be an awesome male!

Keep thinking and visualizing it. There is a great power to positive thinking and visual imagery. I for one wish you right now that your Cherry Pie is a BOY!

 

[Anyfoot]

I have no clue at all when it is not obvious. Here is Cherry Pie, a "female". Her anal opening has never been large, her tail was shorter and fatter. Has been elongating in the last year. She mounts all the girls and fights with the boys. I am wishing "she" is really a "he". Might just be wishful thinking.View attachment 186490

Shoe for size as well-about 10".
View attachment 186489

Plastron:View attachment 186491View attachment 186492

Cherry Pie was not amused.View attachment 186493

@allegraf
This is your photo zoomed and rotated 90°.
Is that the tip of the tail just below the foot on left hand side?

 

[allegraf]

Here are some more shots of Cherry Pie. It is hard to see, but the end of her tail is where my finger is pointing. Also-mosquitos do bite the tortoises through their shell. There is a mosquito biting Cherry Pie.

 

[Anyfoot]

I'm saying female.

 

[allegraf]

Fi know but I like living in denial! At least until I get eggs from Cherry Pie.

 

[Anyfoot]

Fi know but I like living in denial! At least until I get eggs from Cherry Pie.

That's an interesting fact about the mosquitos on the carapace/plastron.
It's dumb question time.
Do they actually get blood from the carapace or plastrons?