Maybe a go plan for this species, at least in the USA.

Kapidolo Farms

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A larger soak area is all well and good, but if you want to encourage the baby to poop, you need to put it into a bowl of water that it can't get out of and leave it in there until it starts to get impatient and starts scrambling to get out. It's the scrambling that gets things inside moving.

Hamster wheel effect in bowl, gotcha ya.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I can not tell with certainty that he pooped. But his plastron is no longer distended, and he throat pumped like crazy this morning when placed in front of food, now with a bit of overripe mango. All the other five ate by just plowing their face through the food mouth opening and closing. The one guy just sat there throat pumping. I had to get on with the day, so oral gavage some mango, winter squash baby food, and Repashy something stuff that blends in and will go through a 22 gauge gavage tube. I use some blue painters tape to hold him to an upside down mushroom box, then pry his mouth open with a very small powder scoop and while he tries to eject that scoop in goes the gavage tube (It's really a plastic needle with a bulb tip). Surprise this morning. He just opened his mouth when I taped him down, about 200ul of 'soup' went down. Little dickhead tortoise.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Another husbandry observation for these guys. Water, they really really like it.

I flood the enclosure one day and drain it the next. On 'drained' days they walk around eat, or not eat as much as swamp days, the fill drain cycle is to keep it from being a fetid swamp. Today I had time and when I flooded it is did so with simulated rain. They get misted heavily everyday. but this was a more protracted rain like refilling.

The key observation, they raise their butts and drink from the water that runs over their shell to their mouth. I would not have noticed if not for the tiny beak squeak they made. At least a few were doing it then all of them were, not squeaking but rather lifting the rear of their carapace funneling water to their head.

The last time I saw any reptile doing this was eyelash vipers in an enclosure at the Philly zoo, that is make a rain such a huge event for drinking. Theses guys will drink from standing water. But the rain stimulated them all to drink this way. Four spray bottles of water later my hand started to cramp, so the rain ended and the rest of the water level increase was from a recycled milk jug.

As for the crawlies they might eat. I added a bunch of clean worms and they all crawled into the un-submerged substrate. They do graze food with fruit fly larvae so they get those worms at least.
 

Shaif

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I can not tell with certainty that he pooped. But his plastron is no longer distended, and he throat pumped like crazy this morning when placed in front of food, now with a bit of overripe mango. All the other five ate by just plowing their face through the food mouth opening and closing. The one guy just sat there throat pumping. I had to get on with the day, so oral gavage some mango, winter squash baby food, and Repashy something stuff that blends in and will go through a 22 gauge gavage tube. I use some blue painters tape to hold him to an upside down mushroom box, then pry his mouth open with a very small powder scoop and while he tries to eject that scoop in goes the gavage tube (It's really a plastic needle with a bulb tip). Surprise this morning. He just opened his mouth when I taped him down, about 200ul of 'soup' went down. Little dickhead tortoise.

Literally made me laugh out old at my daughters dance recital. I’m the worst dance mom ever. But it’s not her turn yet.
 

mikeh

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The two good eaters here will eat oyster mushroom head the size of their shell in one sit....um where does it go? And I don't think they would mind eating just that day in and day out.

And here is the odd number, biggest wimp of the group but prefers to be hand fed. I couldn't help myself to share.
IMG_0959.jpgIMG_0962.jpg

Hope you don't mind me using your thread Will.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I lost another one mid November and three this last week. The remaining individual is slowly going down, and seems like it will pass in the next week.

I have to try and sort out the source of the failure. Others from the same cohort with other people have done very well. So the fault is with my husbandry.

1) they felt crowded? The plants grew thick enough I don't consider this as too strong a case, the number of large leaves on the enclosure floor made all of them able to hide from each other. Still not sure this is not a factor.

2) they all ate with gusto for a few months and them all of a slow sudden, slowed eating. Did I offer something that was unfavorable, or did they just focus on eating oyster mushrooms at the expense of a more rounded diet? I did a necropsy on them, I don't have enough capability to do pathology on tissues, but with the first one that died, I noticed that the fenestra and plastron had very little filling in with any bone at all. I looked up oyster mushrooms and found they have a 1:40 C: P ratio. I reduced oyster mushroom a great deal, cut it much finer and mixed in opuntia slime and pulp to bring the calcium up. They cut back on eating a great deal at this point. So I increased the oyster mushroom amount and started spraying them with water that had calcium added to it, eating ticked up. Their drinking 'rain' increased so I thought I had the matter solved to some extent. They had not been reluctant to drink standing water or rain before.

3) enclosure climate, when they were eating with gusto the daily temps were in the low to mid 80F and the night time drop to the mid 70F. We had a few days where their enclosure went into the low 90F and they just sat in the water tray all day, but were still eating, but less. When our winter started (lower humidity) I started spraying with a hand pump garden sprayer about one to two gallons a day. But the non-spray times ambient humidity went from summer time of 70% plus, to 40% plus. Temps are about the same. The lower 80F now being as high as it would get.

Another point to consider. Sewer flies population jumped, so I put a mosquito dunk in the substrate. It contains a bacteria meant to harm the growth cycle in mosquitoes, and it acts on sewer flies as well. I have used these in nearly all other enclosures including the M.e.p. with no apparent problems, but maybe these guys did have a problem with it?

Something in their care got away from me.
 

Markw84

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I lost another one mid November and three this last week. The remaining individual is slowly going down, and seems like it will pass in the next week.

I have to try and sort out the source of the failure. Others from the same cohort with other people have done very well. So the fault is with my husbandry.

1) they felt crowded? The plants grew thick enough I don't consider this as too strong a case, the number of large leaves on the enclosure floor made all of them able to hide from each other. Still not sure this is not a factor.

2) they all ate with gusto for a few months and them all of a slow sudden, slowed eating. Did I offer something that was unfavorable, or did they just focus on eating oyster mushrooms at the expense of a more rounded diet? I did a necropsy on them, I don't have enough capability to do pathology on tissues, but with the first one that died, I noticed that the fenestra and plastron had very little filling in with any bone at all. I looked up oyster mushrooms and found they have a 1:40 C: P ratio. I reduced oyster mushroom a great deal, cut it much finer and mixed in opuntia slime and pulp to bring the calcium up. They cut back on eating a great deal at this point. So I increased the oyster mushroom amount and started spraying them with water that had calcium added to it, eating ticked up. Their drinking 'rain' increased so I thought I had the matter solved to some extent. They had not been reluctant to drink standing water or rain before.

3) enclosure climate, when they were eating with gusto the daily temps were in the low to mid 80F and the night time drop to the mid 70F. We had a few days where their enclosure went into the low 90F and they just sat in the water tray all day, but were still eating, but less. When our winter started (lower humidity) I started spraying with a hand pump garden sprayer about one to two gallons a day. But the non-spray times ambient humidity went from summer time of 70% plus, to 40% plus. Temps are about the same. The lower 80F now being as high as it would get.

Another point to consider. Sewer flies population jumped, so I put a mosquito dunk in the substrate. It contains a bacteria meant to harm the growth cycle in mosquitoes, and it acts on sewer flies as well. I have used these in nearly all other enclosures including the M.e.p. with no apparent problems, but maybe these guys did have a problem with it?

Something in their care got away from me.
My vote, for what it's worth, is on #2. The fontanelles will take quite a long time to fill in - years - so I wouldn't count that as too telling. However, I would think the lack of free calcium in the blood could certainly do what you are describing. You did notice a brief response with added calcium in the water, but perhaps the overabundance of phos from diet quickly negated that?? Circulating calcium is going to affect muscle and nerve function. Did you notice and loss of activity levels or perhaps impaired righting ability if overturned/while handling?
 

Kapidolo Farms

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My vote, for what it's worth, is on #2. The fontanelles will take quite a long time to fill in - years - so I wouldn't count that as too telling. However, I would think the lack of free calcium in the blood could certainly do what you are describing. You did notice a brief response with added calcium in the water, but perhaps the overabundance of phos from diet quickly negated that?? Circulating calcium is going to affect muscle and nerve function. Did you notice and loss of activity levels or perhaps impaired righting ability if overturned/while handling?

Yeah Mark, I agree, but wouldn't bet on it. I am thinking the high agreement that oyster mushrooms are some kind of impressa magic is false. Maybe like Testudo and cucumber???
 

KevinGG

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Perhaps an uneducated guess, but I would bet on #3. I’ve read of elongata that had almost exclusively mushroom content in their guts. Of course, this depends on which mushrooms, diet throughout rest of the year, age, etc. So I’ll disregard that, but I’ve also seen lots of people feeding large amounts of oyster mushroom to several species, most notably Impressa at the BCC. I might be exaggerating, but oyster mushrooms seem to make up a portion of every feeding. I’m not sure of neonate care.

Anyways, I’ve had limited experience with hatchling deaths. I’ve really only experienced it in Chelodina Mccordi. I lost both hatchlings in seemingly perfect care. Jay thought it might be a change in water parameters. I talked to the head keeper at the BCC and he said they lost all of their Mccordi hatchlings last year. He messed with the temperatures and this year, they’ve hatched and kept alive close to 40 hatchlings.

I know these can’t be applied directly, but I think demonstrates the sensitivity of rarer chelonians. Especially species as sensitive to habitat as Impressa. I’d be most worried about the humidity level and temps to a lesser degree. BCC houses them in nearly 100% humidity year round and temps never rise above mid 80s.

If torts we’re getting good levels of calcium, can phosphorus negate this?
 

Markw84

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If torts we’re getting good levels of calcium, can phosphorus negate this?

We do know in mammals that phosphate (phosphorus combines with oxygen in the blood to create phosphate) is eliminated through the kidneys. If the kidneys are functioning correctly this normally will keep things in balance. High phosphate/low calcium levels trigger the release of parathyroid hormone which tells the kidneys to expel more phosphate and increase the active vitamin D levels. It will also trigger calcium to be released from the bones to compensate. If the kidneys are not functioning properly or there is just too much phosphates, excess phosphate in the blood will bind with calcium. That is then stored in the cells. A buildup of these deposits causes calcification in the cells which then can disrupt normal organ functions.

To what extent all of this can apply directly to chelonians and impressa in particular with their dietary adaptations????
 
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