Maybe a go plan for this species, at least in the USA.

[KevinGG]

We do know in mammals that phosphate (phosphorus combines with oxygen in the blood to create phosphate) is eliminated through the kidneys. If the kidneys are functioning correctly this normally will keep things in balance. High phosphate/low calcium levels trigger the release of parathyroid hormone which tells the kidneys to expel more phosphate and increase the active vitamin D levels. It will also trigger calcium to be released from the bones to compensate. If the kidneys are not functioning properly or there is just too much phosphates, excess phosphate in the blood will bind with calcium. That is then stored in the cells. A buildup of these deposits causes calcification in the cells which then can disrupt normal organ functions.

To what extent all of this can apply directly to chelonians and impressa in particular with their dietary adaptations????

Thanks Mark. Your sharing makes me think it’s probably a combination of the two or more(as usual). If kidneys were already stressed from either phosphorus or dehydration, the addition of the other would probably exacerbate kidney problems, right?

I lost a male Hermanni to kidney failure early this year. It’s really awful. Slow death, with what appears to be involuntary movements. Chris Leone shared that they are sometimes known to abandon drinking when in the presence of females.

@Will have you seen symptoms in line with kidney failure?

 

[tortadise]

I lost another one mid November and three this last week. The remaining individual is slowly going down, and seems like it will pass in the next week.

I have to try and sort out the source of the failure. Others from the same cohort with other people have done very well. So the fault is with my husbandry.

1) they felt crowded? The plants grew thick enough I don't consider this as too strong a case, the number of large leaves on the enclosure floor made all of them able to hide from each other. Still not sure this is not a factor.

2) they all ate with gusto for a few months and them all of a slow sudden, slowed eating. Did I offer something that was unfavorable, or did they just focus on eating oyster mushrooms at the expense of a more rounded diet? I did a necropsy on them, I don't have enough capability to do pathology on tissues, but with the first one that died, I noticed that the fenestra and plastron had very little filling in with any bone at all. I looked up oyster mushrooms and found they have a 1:40 C: P ratio. I reduced oyster mushroom a great deal, cut it much finer and mixed in opuntia slime and pulp to bring the calcium up. They cut back on eating a great deal at this point. So I increased the oyster mushroom amount and started spraying them with water that had calcium added to it, eating ticked up. Their drinking 'rain' increased so I thought I had the matter solved to some extent. They had not been reluctant to drink standing water or rain before.

3) enclosure climate, when they were eating with gusto the daily temps were in the low to mid 80F and the night time drop to the mid 70F. We had a few days where their enclosure went into the low 90F and they just sat in the water tray all day, but were still eating, but less. When our winter started (lower humidity) I started spraying with a hand pump garden sprayer about one to two gallons a day. But the non-spray times ambient humidity went from summer time of 70% plus, to 40% plus. Temps are about the same. The lower 80F now being as high as it would get.

Another point to consider. Sewer flies population jumped, so I put a mosquito dunk in the substrate. It contains a bacteria meant to harm the growth cycle in mosquitoes, and it acts on sewer flies as well. I have used these in nearly all other enclosures including the M.e.p. with no apparent problems, but maybe these guys did have a problem with it?

Something in their care got away from me.

This is incredibly unfortunate will! Alike Manouria neonates, I separated ours into 3 groups. Right off the bat I knew one would perish. So 2 tubs of 3 and 1 tub of 4. They get moved around as the weakest ones show and are placed together in a different tub to establish a pecking order. Seemed to work. So far our losses are 4 of the 10. One was a fluke. It had flipped over and couldn’t right itself. Seemed enclosing the tops and additionally misting them was crucial and beginning development. Very difficult species for sure.

 

[tortadise]

Perhaps an uneducated guess, but I would bet on #3. I’ve read of elongata that had almost exclusively mushroom content in their guts. Of course, this depends on which mushrooms, diet throughout rest of the year, age, etc. So I’ll disregard that, but I’ve also seen lots of people feeding large amounts of oyster mushroom to several species, most notably Impressa at the BCC. I might be exaggerating, but oyster mushrooms seem to make up a portion of every feeding. I’m not sure of neonate care.

Anyways, I’ve had limited experience with hatchling deaths. I’ve really only experienced it in Chelodina Mccordi. I lost both hatchlings in seemingly perfect care. Jay thought it might be a change in water parameters. I talked to the head keeper at the BCC and he said they lost all of their Mccordi hatchlings last year. He messed with the temperatures and this year, they’ve hatched and kept alive close to 40 hatchlings.

I know these can’t be applied directly, but I think demonstrates the sensitivity of rarer chelonians. Especially species as sensitive to habitat as Impressa. I’d be most worried about the humidity level and temps to a lesser degree. BCC houses them in nearly 100% humidity year round and temps never rise above mid 80s.

If torts we’re getting good levels of calcium, can phosphorus negate this?

I remember back in 2000 something when I purchased my first impressa Ron had stated that oyster mushrooms were a staple, along with epiprenum(pothos) so after the 1st year of the babies consuming oyster mushrooms and pothos I started to switch towards greens and typical dietary foods like we fed our emys emys. It was consumed without hesitation. But the pothos was eaten more than anything even the oyster mushrooms. I believe just because it’s consumed or favored most that it shouldn’t be a main course item. Ours this go around are eating quite well on bamboo shoots. Only fresh shoots though. They will not consume mature leaves off the bamboo stocks.So it leaves me to believe that they are completely opportunistic in situ and furthermore in captivity. Just me blabbing. Sure hope we don’t lose anymore.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I will hold with the idea of the cucumber/testudo husbandry malfunction. But oyster mushrooms/impressa, That others who have some from the same cohort have had good growth somewhat validates this as best as I can sort out.

The baby M.e.p. got/get the same diet as the adults, but more finely chopped, and the adults get portabells as frequently as the store has a case not sold with too many open caps, not often at all, not to mention probably 10+ pounds of bone calcium to buffer the occasional mushroom rich meal.

Such a dolt to fall for the cucumber issue. If the six tortoises in one enclosure caused stress could make some sense if at least one pulled ahead of the others. The last one to pass had grown the least, which sorta corroborates diet. I spoke with a few folks that fly under the radar who asked, "so they went mushy?". Their experience is with openly imported (under the radar again) neonates from China. I hope to engage some Chinese friends on this, which I should have done at the get go.

lessons learned at the expense of the tortoises are those that really bug me into sleepless nights. This will take some time to reduce the sting of ignorance and stupidity.

Ron is a salesman first, never any doubt in my mind on that, I will always ask him as much as I think his patience will accept, but take it all as his protecting future sales. He is such an extraordinary likeable person.