Minimal temp for a margie?

yillt

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Hi. I've just moved house into a smallish little house with my family and my mum insists that I keep Billy outside because she says tortoises are MEANT TO be outside. Which is half true because Margies didn't originate in England (where I live). He would be in the fridge for hibernation but could I keep his new cage outside (obviously with him in it.)I have attached a photo below of his new cage. He can't quite get up the ramp yet but I'm planning on attaching some rougher material on it. ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1406819967.251127.jpgSorry the pic is small. The measurements are quite big and it is about the height of a small eight year old and I think it is 4 feet long.
 

yillt

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I will put some bubble wrap on the ceiling to insulate it.
 
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I'm having a tough time with temps for my marginated as well. Basically, I have it about 105 degrees at one end under his UVB lamp, and then it drops off to mid 70s - 80 or so on the other side of his tub. I keep changing it around (I thought I had it too hot before) but now his daily routine is to bury himself in the substrate, wake up very late--usually just by poking his head out--get a bath, eat, and then promptly bury himself again. He used to come out in the evening (when it was warmer) but now he just stays buried until the next day.

I've also made an outdoor habitat, so he can get real sunlight, but the poor guy buries himself so quickly that he doesn't even eat out there. I don't know if I'm screwing him up with all the moving him from outdoors to indoors, or if I have my temps off or what--are those electronic exoterra thermometers reliable?

Basically, if anyone has suggestions, I'd love to hear them. I'm very much a rookie at this, but trying my best to keep the little guy happy and healthy.
 

tglazie

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Helio, I must say, from your baby's picture, he looks alright. So long as he eats and drinks regularly, he's fine. Margies spend much of their time hiding when they're juveniles, more than most. If you're concerned about the accuracy of your exoterra thermometer, I suggest obtaining a temp gun with a laser sight. The medium priced models are incredibly accurate. This will also allow you to see the temperature of the soil in which he hides, ultimately giving you a better idea of his preferences. I don't know if temp guns are really superior in any scientific sense. To be perfectly honest, I just like them, because I can take the surface temperature of anything. Heck, half the time, I'm using the thing on my cats, or the stove. I mean, they're ridiculously convenient, and you don't have to disinfect the probe. They're just the coolest.

Ultimately, the tortoise's decision to spend much or little time in hiding has a lot to do with personality. My largest and first Marginated, Gino, is very active, aggressive, and takes full advantage of his eight by twenty foot enclosure. My smallest male, Little Gino (I'm very clever with the names), is incredibly shy and spends most of his time hiding. In fact, when I see him out grazing, I tend to creep up on him to avoid scaring him into one of his shelters, because if he sees my shadow or movement, that's exactly what he does. He's a little coward who despises humans. He also is the worst about being picked up for soaks and inspections. I often find myself dragging him out of his enclosure to graze in the morning, like the rest of the tortoises. Unfortunately, he is a tortoise, and so he is a stubborn young fool who will always go back to where he was. Tortoises have inertia in that particular aspect, I find. I recently acquired two females from Chris, and those two ladies are like night and day. One is feisty, explores constantly, and pushes against my hand anytime I pick her up. The other is shy, explores only in the shade and only if she believes she is unseen, and withdraws into her shell even when I place food in front of her (granted, most of their diet is natural graze, but I throw in grated squash, various greens, and the occasional (once per month) piece of fruit. Doesn't matter what I do, she's invariably afraid. Soaking her stinks, because the other torts start drinking immediately upon being placed in the water. She always slowly emerges from her shell, looks around like a paranoid crazy tortoise, tries to escape the tub, then maybe, if I'm lucky, decides to take a few short sips, all the while watching to ensure that nothing is out to get her. Tortoise habits vary incredibly by personality. As keepers, we must explore these traits and utilize them to provide the best care for the particular individual with whom we're charged.

T.G.
 
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T.G., thank you so much for the long and thoughtful reply. I really appreciate it. I think Gregor may just be a shyer tortoise--if he sees us looking at him, he'll stop eating.
 

tglazie

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Yeah, you've got a shy one, alright. Little Gino does the same thing. If I walk up to him while he's grazing, he'll stop what he's doing, and if I continue to shuffle about the area, he high tails it back to a hiding spot. Gino, on the other hand, either acts like I'm not there or approaches to solicit me for a treat. Lady Gino, my biggest female, behaves the same as Gino does, though she used to be very shy when she was younger. She still is cautious I find, but she doesn't run off when faced with my presence. The most gregarious of my beasts is definitely Graecus, though, a Middle Eastern, jet black Greek tortoise I've had since I was ten years old (I'm in my thirties now, so he's been with me through three airforce base housing moves, one apartment, one house rental, and finally my current home in San Antonio, TX). Graecus always drops whatever he's doing to approach me whenever I'm out in the backyard (not right now, unfortunately, given that temperatures are climbing into the upper nineties; my backyard is shaded by four mulberry trees, two live oaks, and a big persimmon between the enclosures, but it is still too hot for a black Greek like Graecus, who spends his time buried in the dirt and moss of his shaded hide).

Interestingly, he only approaches me, and he will only accept food from my hand. My brother and others have tried to feed him by hand, but he won't accept it from anyone unless they throw it to the ground and back away. He's highly intelligent, but also highly aggressive. When I was fifteen or so, I went through that foolish novice phase where I thought Graecus was lonely. So, I got him a girlfriend, a northern Ibera greek that wasn't compatible. He made her life miserable, to the point that I had to separate her and ultimately give her to a friend, seeing as how I only had papers for Graecus during our move to Hamburg. No viable eggs ever resulted, but now, I'm not surprised by this, given that she was a lightly colored northern Ibera and he was a dark, diminutive southern ibera. Fast forward two years, I started getting into water turtles, and seeing as how the Alamogordo pet shop only had redears, I got myself one. I set up an above ground pool that I placed within Graecus' enclosure. One day, the turtle got out of the pool, and I was surprisd to find Graecus ramming the turtle, chasing him from one end of the enclosure to the other. Graecus would attack anything that even remotely resembled a chelonian. A misguided uncle of mine brought me a trinket he'd acquired during his travels in China made from a Reeve's turtle shell. My dad put it in Graecus' enclosure to guage the guy's reaction, and sure as the sun rises in the east, Graecus engaged a relentless assault. I've seen him do this with shoes, toy turtles, even turtle shaped rocks. Which is weird, given that when I approach close enough for him to see, he puts on a happy face (as happy as a tortoise face gets, I suppose).

T.G.
 
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T. G., that's really fascinating. Did your more gregarious tortoises get bolder and more social, or were they pretty outgoing to begin with? I wonder if this guy will warm up to us. At least now he's just decided to hide in a flowerpot instead of burying himself all the time. He's an odd animal, but we're all crazy about him,
 

tglazie

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Well, when they're small, they're always a little on the shy side. But yes, some do get bolder (Gino and Lady Gino being prime examples). Lady Gino, for instance, was the smallest of three that I raised from hatchlings. Two grew up to be males, which I ended up selling off. Both of them were extremely bold as youngsters and continued to be so as adults, and as they were my first margies, I didn't anticipate them getting so big so quickly. One actually used the other as a boost to escape from the twelve inch fencing I'd used to pen my Greek. I always figured twelve inch fencing with an overhang would be sufficient, but as soon as my boys reached eight inches, they used each other to shimmy over the wall like it was just another obstacle in their enclosure. Luckily, I secure my fence along the outer perimeter as well, so any escapes are usually futile, but still, my nerves were wracked to say the least. But yes, both of those boys were aggressive little jerks by the time they reached maturity. Lady Gino, by contrast, was always very shy growing up. I suppose it didn't help that I was so eager to breed her, I housed her together with Big Gino and the other females right when she reached eight inches. Gino was an abusive monster, who basically made it so that Lady Gino did nothing but hide. After a summer of this, which ended in Lady Gino suffering a leg wounded that required veterinary attention, I decided that those arguing for group keeping were wrong. I've since housed all of my animals separately, and once I did this, Lady Gino became much more outgoing.

Your tortoise, I must say, looks fantastic. His pyramiding is minimal to nonexistent, you seem to be feeding him a wide variety of good vegetation (indicated by what you're serving him in the picture and his ideal growth), and his coloration and demeanor appears healthy. Some tortoises are shy. He may grow out of it, as Lady Gino did, or he may remain nervous and flighty, as Little Gino, the one that I have to sneak up on to catch him grazing, did. Such is the nature of tortoise keeping. Many people seem to think reptiles are idiots, their intelligence level being incapable of sustaining personality. I think those people are either uninformed or idiots themselves. I've noticed greater difference in personality between my tortoises than I've ever noticed between any other mammalian pets I've kept. I mean, dogs and cats are smart, and they vary personality wise quite obviously, but I've also kept hamsters, gerbils, mice, rats, guinea pigs and rabbits when I was a kid, and none of them demonstrated the variable personalities that emerge in so long lived a creature as a tortoise. Not to disparage those other critters. I'm just a strident defender of tortoise intelligence. They're unlike any other creature on earth. I only wish I had more land and more time to spend on them.

T.G.
 
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It's interesting what you say about intelligence and personality. My wife and I keep talking about how much having a baby tortoise is like having an actual baby. They sleep a lot, you bathe them every day. Less noisy, certainly. I'm very curious about what this guy will be like as an adult. I'm glad I found this forum--otherwise, I think I would have been tempted to gt Gregor a friend. I've also gotten great advice. And really, thanks for taking the time to help out this rookie.
 

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