mixing species?

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argus333

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i know its bad and frowned on. but every zoo i go to does it.. whats with the mixing?
popcorn park zoo-- leopards and sulcatas
cape may zoo- leopards sulcatas and aldabras!!!
staten island -- leopards with all kinds of african mamals!
bush gardens tampa-- sulcatas aldabras Galapagos! awsome display!
snake animal farm- sulcata leopards.
central park- sulcata leopards
anyone here do it?
 

Yellow Turtle

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I believe you can do that with very careful observation. But now, not all personal care gets the luxury of having a full time vets like the zoo.
 

Irwin4530

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Not only betting, but care for each variety of tort is different. You need to look at more then just the fact that they are mixed...I have been to only two of the zoos you listed and their care was terrible!! I am NOT saying that all zoos are bad (you listed one you
Thought was great, I've never been so I cannot comment) but it makes care easier and torts healthier if you keep them by species.....remember what doesn't bother one species will harm another.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide :)


What types of torts were you thinking of
Mixing ?!
 

Tom

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Three main problems:
1. Behavioral incompatibility.
2. Enclosure parameter incompatibility. Hotter, cooler, wetter, etc...
3. Disease potential. Different species from different parts of the world are not equipped to deal with each others intestinal nasties.

Zoos take a big risk when they do this. Sometimes they get away with it for a while, sometimes they don't. It also makes it easier when you have a full time veterinary staff to immediately deal with any of the multitude of problems that pop up from this practice. BTW, In most cases, zoos have many factors to balance and deal with when housing their animals, including pleasing the public. Zoos are not necessarily good example setters for the public to follow.
 

jtrux

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Personally I don't think mixing species is a good idea. Sulcatas tend to have bolder personalities than Leopards and might intimidate them or stress them out, or vise versa, you never know. You never know what might happen when you are at work, or inside watching TV. You just can't be there with them all the time so it's really a better idea to just give them their own space.
 

Baoh

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It would seem that, like with all things, some folks are more capable of managing this than others might be.

I mix species and match for sex, size, and (most importantly to me) behavior as I see it. I do not mix all animals or mix in all situations. I am not experiencing the doomsday often claimed regarding such things. I neither promote nor discourage mixing as a matter of course. You can have disaster with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and even when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions. Likewise, you can have great success with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions.
 

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Many zoos are still using an inherited system of mixing the large island species. The valid concerns of disease transmission had either already been born out many years ago, and/or the zoo simply does not have space/exhibits to separate them, an often witnessed professional argument between the herp curator seeking to sperate, with the director seeking admissions and zoo use sales - gets won by the director most of the time..

Sulcata and leopards do have overlapping areas of their natural ranges, not much, but it is biogeographicaly correct. I would still not house them together, as sulcatas seem more often than not, unwilling to share space with leopards.

Other mixed groups that have been displayed with images here (TFO) are yellowfoots, aldabras, and galops, all based on the size of the animals and again, that professional argument, at Saint Louis Zoo (which has one of the finest reptile vivariums in the US - IMO).

The reason zoos do it is mostly based on an inherited set-up, coupled with the fact that zoos have a different criteria/needs, they are selling tickets, and have a full time vet, and dedicated staff (good or bad). Many zoos with a stronger curator have leaned towards having only one or the other of the giants, based on popularity with their public, and what the curator can manage in terms of which group can be properly surplused.

Mixing the tortoises outside with mammals is a good way to show how animals are in the wild, not species by species as might be thought of as the 'biblical' display pattern. Many of those animals (not by species, but by individual) will be housed separately when off display.

There are good zoos, great zoos, and those that are minimal. I've been to the Cape May zoo many times, it is a well managed animal population with many dedicated keepers. In there tropical bird house they mix species too, in a multi-hundred square foot enclosure. Not an aquarium or even a 4 x 8 footprint enclosure.

Size of enclosure is another factor that makes mixed species work, if at all. A redfoot mixed with a Russian at PetCo is a disaster, two biogeographicaly mixed species like a leopard and a sulcata in an exhibit large enough for mixed hoof stock is OK. These are apples and oranges types of comparisons.

Mixing species has two fates, it will work or it won't. So what you have to consider, is this - are your husbandry practices good enough, and your resources (vets, physical space, etc.) sufficient - to play with it? Then ask yourself even if you meet the first criteria, what benefit are you getting, are the tortoises getting from being mixed? Most all tortoises are single animals with occasional encounters in the wild with other tortoises. They are not mob, herd, or flocking animals with very few exceptions.

The tortoise does not NEED to be with others. So what do you get, the fewer enclosures to upkeep - mix the wrong species/individuals together and they will die, and then you have no upkeep!

The sole animal disaster, as it was phrased, is the result of disease, poor husbandry, or the individual animal not being a "doer". Two of those three potentials is why you should always use a long quarantine, and not mix.

Will
 

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Baoh said:
It would seem that, like with all things, some folks are more capable of managing this than others might be.

I mix species and match for sex, size, and (most importantly to me) behavior as I see it. I do not mix all animals or mix in all situations. I am not experiencing the doomsday often claimed regarding such things. I neither promote nor discourage mixing as a matter of course. You can have disaster with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and even when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions. Likewise, you can have great success with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions.

And however you want to phrase this you are taking a risk. An unnecessary risk. A risk that is not wise for most people in most situations to engage in.

And yes you ARE promoting it by your constant arguing with those who recommend against it. If people don't mix species, as I and many others recommend, no disease will be transmitted between species. If they choose to mix species as YOU are constantly demonstrating, diseases MIGHT be transmitted to the detriment of someone's collection.

Whether or not you are technically correct is irrelevant here. Your position helps no one, possibly hurts some, and makes you look bad, over and over and over... Please stop.


Baoh said:
Likewise, you can have great success with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions.

Likewise, I can have great success playing russian roulette too. Up to five out of six times in a row!
 

african cake queen

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Tom said:
Three main problems:
1. Behavioral incompatibility.
2. Enclosure parameter incompatibility. Hotter, cooler, wetter, etc...
3. Disease potential. Different species from different parts of the world are not equipped to deal with each others intestinal nasties.

Zoos take a big risk when they do this. Sometimes they get away with it for a while, sometimes they don't. It also makes it easier when you have a full time veterinary staff to immediately deal with any of the multitude of problems that pop up from this practice. BTW, In most cases, zoos have many factors to balance and deal with when housing their animals, including pleasing the public. Zoos are not necessarily good example setters for the public to follow.
hi, i agree. my vet. says the same thing. number 3 point is a major one.i trust my vet and would never put any other kind of tort. with my cakes.
 

tyrs4u

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Proof they 'can' live together but it is never recommend ... Cute photo...
 

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FLINTUS

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I was chatting to Danny on another forum about mixing redfoots and cherry heads and he thinks they shouldn't be mixed as could be a completely different species.
 

RedfootsRule

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Tom said:
Baoh said:
It would seem that, like with all things, some folks are more capable of managing this than others might be.

I mix species and match for sex, size, and (most importantly to me) behavior as I see it. I do not mix all animals or mix in all situations. I am not experiencing the doomsday often claimed regarding such things. I neither promote nor discourage mixing as a matter of course. You can have disaster with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and even when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions. Likewise, you can have great success with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions.

And however you want to phrase this you are taking a risk. An unnecessary risk. A risk that is not wise for most people in most situations to engage in.

And yes you ARE promoting it by your constant arguing with those who recommend against it. If people don't mix species, as I and many others recommend, no disease will be transmitted between species. If they choose to mix species as YOU are constantly demonstrating, diseases MIGHT be transmitted to the detriment of someone's collection.

Whether or not you are technically correct is irrelevant here. Your position helps no one, possibly hurts some, and makes you look like an ***, over and over and over... Please stop.


Baoh said:
Likewise, you can have great success with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions.

Likewise, I can have great success playing russian roulette too. Up to five out of six times in a row!



Tom, has he claimed in other threads that it is ok? I've only seen it once, and all he is saying is you CAN have success. And you can. Should it be attempted? Probably not. I don't care who you are, we all get an opinion. Yes, it could hurt some, but unfortunately, sometimes we post things. We can't stop every time we post an answer to a question (well you know some guy from the Ukraine who just got a russian tortoise could think this means that and....). We don't always think of it...If we did, it would take a lot of quality and enjoyment away from this forum (for some members).

I suppose it depends on the species your mixing. As Will said, russians and red foots? Definitely not. Yellowfoots and red foots? I see nothing wrong with it. Geographic location has a lot to do with it. Can you mix a desert tortoise with a impressed? Absoloutely not (obviously).
He has stated his opinion. Personally, I agree with him. Yes, it is a dangerous game of russian roulette to mix species. It should not be attempted by many. It CAN be done with success however. There is a multitude of problems that MAY arise, but how much experience does anyone here have with species mixing? If you have healthy animals (okay, I know the diseases that can be transmitted to other tortoises are unharmful to that tortoise, yada yada) it can be done with success...

FLINTUS,
I don't see anything wrong with keeping cherries and red foots. They MAY be different sub-species. Keyword, sub-species. They will never be different species..Personally, I don't see a thing wrong with mixing yf's, rf's and cherries (as long as there is similar size and no aggression. With any mixing of even the same species, you have to watch out for aggression). They all come from the same area, and they do encounter each other in the wild...
 

Baoh

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Tom said:
Baoh said:
It would seem that, like with all things, some folks are more capable of managing this than others might be.

I mix species and match for sex, size, and (most importantly to me) behavior as I see it. I do not mix all animals or mix in all situations. I am not experiencing the doomsday often claimed regarding such things. I neither promote nor discourage mixing as a matter of course. You can have disaster with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and even when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions. Likewise, you can have great success with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions.

And however you want to phrase this you are taking a risk. An unnecessary risk. A risk that is not wise for most people in most situations to engage in.

And yes you ARE promoting it by your constant arguing with those who recommend against it. If people don't mix species, as I and many others recommend, no disease will be transmitted between species. If they choose to mix species as YOU are constantly demonstrating, diseases MIGHT be transmitted to the detriment of someone's collection.

Whether or not you are technically correct is irrelevant here.


Baoh said:
Likewise, you can have great success with multiple animals of the same species, multiple animals of different species, and when keeping a single animal in solitary conditions.

Likewise, I can have great success playing russian roulette too. Up to five out of six times in a row!



You take an unnecessary risk every time you take a shower. I am assuming you shower.

I do not recall a time I have promoted it (as being inherently superior) over keeping solitary animals or keeping multiple individuals within a species. I do provide a counter-perspective to dogmatic demonization, however.

The transfer of pathogens from one species to another does not necessitate their mixing. A gap in a hygiene protocol can easily do the same. Forgetting to take full steps just once is enough, assuming pathogens are present. If they are not present, ill wishes and irrational fears will not lead to their spontaneous generation. If they are present, they are also harmful to same-species contact, but if they are present in neither species in a mixed-species setup, that matter becomes immaterial.

Being technically correct is the best kind of correct to be and is relevant even if it is inconvenient for you and whatever dichotomous religion (old vs. new, bone dry vs. jungle-like closed chamber, always mix all species vs. never mix any species, and so on) you are attempting to forge.

Please avoid slipping in that shower. :)
 

Kapidolo Farms

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FLINTUS said:
I was chatting to Danny on another forum about mixing redfoots and cherry heads and he thinks they shouldn't be mixed as could be a completely different species.

They are the same species, really, no more different then an albino from a non-albino of the same species, it is a color morph, not a species or even a subspecies. At best it is a phenotypical expression of a cline, or variation among populations.

If some of the arm chair geneticists here want, I can shoot you a few pdf's about this kind of thing.

Will
 

RedfootsRule

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Will said:
FLINTUS said:
I was chatting to Danny on another forum about mixing redfoots and cherry heads and he thinks they shouldn't be mixed as could be a completely different species.

They are the same species, really, no more different then an albino from a non-albino of the same species, it is a color morph, not a species or even a subspecies. At best it is a phenotypical expression of a cline, or variation among populations.

If some of the arm chair geneticists here want, I can shoot you a few pdf's about this kind of thing.

Will

Same species or not is an interesting thing. Some say it is just color variation through locality. Some say they could be different subspecies. I think either one is a possibility...But genetic work is very unlikely to be done on it, so we will probably always be speculating :)...

Not sure what an "arm chair geneticist" is, but I'm always interested in learning. :). Send it to me if possible.
 

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Peter, this is a long standing argument between he and I. You already spelled out the answer in your post. No one has ever said that it is a 100% instant death sentence the minute you put two different species in the same enclosure. What I have always maintained is that its risky and should be recommended against. I have seen many tortoises die as a result of this and so have many other keepers.

The point is that MY advice will hurt NO ONE'S tortoises, and could possibly save someone from making a fatal mistake. Baoh isn't arguing that anyone SHOULD mix species he just likes to pop in and say that it is physically possible to do it without killing or infecting one's tortoises. The problem is that its SEEMS like he IS arguing and it might encourage some people to do things they otherwise wouldn't have. I say it hasn't been a problem, YET. Or that he is yet aware of.

Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when someone's opinion is potentially fatal to someone else's tortoises who has come here asking for help and guidance, I will not stand by and watch bad advice given, or the appearance of advocating risky, potentially dangerous practices. Practices that I know first hand can be deadly. If you wish to not say anything out of respect for everyone's opinion, that is your prerogative.
 

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Tom said:
Peter, this is a long standing argument between he and I. You already spelled out the answer in your post. No one has ever said that it is a 100% instant death sentence the minute you put two different species in the same enclosure. What I have always maintained is that its risky and should be recommended against. I have seen many tortoises die as a result of this and so have many other keepers.

The point is that MY advice will hurt NO ONE'S tortoises, and could possibly save someone from making a fatal mistake. Baoh isn't arguing that anyone SHOULD mix species he just likes to pop in and say that it is physically possible to do it without killing or infecting one's tortoises. The problem is that its SEEMS like he IS arguing and it might encourage some people to do things they otherwise wouldn't have. I say it hasn't been a problem, YET. Or that he is yet aware of. His remarks are often accompanied by thinly veiled insults and snarky jabs, which is why I say what I say about him looking that way.

Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when someone's opinion is potentially fatal to someone else's tortoises who has come here asking for help and guidance, I will not stand by and watch bad advice given, or the appearance of advocating risky, potentially dangerous practices. Practices that I know first hand can be deadly. If you wish to not say anything out of respect for everyone's opinion, that is your prerogative.

Because...it...is....

I have even detailed how I have used the feces of one tortoise of one species to assist in the recovery of another tortoise of a separate species that was ill when it came to me. I would preferentially perform this with a related animal, but there are situations where I will work with what I have for a number of reasons.

I tend not to resort to name-calling, unlike yourself. I guess my horse simply does not stoop that low.
 

RedfootsRule

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Tom said:
Peter, this is a long standing argument between he and I. You already spelled out the answer in your post. No one has ever said that it is a 100% instant death sentence the minute you put two different species in the same enclosure. What I have always maintained is that its risky and should be recommended against. I have seen many tortoises die as a result of this and so have many other keepers.

The point is that MY advice will hurt NO ONE'S tortoises, and could possibly save someone from making a fatal mistake. Baoh isn't arguing that anyone SHOULD mix species he just likes to pop in and say that it is physically possible to do it without killing or infecting one's tortoises. The problem is that its SEEMS like he IS arguing and it might encourage some people to do things they otherwise wouldn't have. it hasn't been a problem, YET. Or that he is yet aware of. His remarks are often accompanied by thinly veiled insults and snarky jabs, which is why I say what I say about him looking that way.

Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when someone's opinion is potentially fatal to someone else's tortoises who has come here asking for help and guidance, I will not stand by and watch bad advice given, or the appearance of advocating risky, potentially dangerous practices. Practices that I know first hand can be deadly. If you wish to not say anything out of respect for everyone's opinion, that is your prerogative.

As I said, our discussions cannot be limited to whether someone might read it and take the wrong meaning from it, thus hurting their tortoise. It just can't. What is "seems" like people are doing unfortunately doesn't matter, its what they are. Clearly, you take this as a personal affront to you, but I see no "thinly veiled insults", "snarky jabs", or him claiming he has "superior intellect". Nobody is getting on their high horse and "speaking condescendingly to our inferior minds" whether you wish to believe that or not. A fact was stated. It is physically possible to do. Thats all I saw stated...He said himself, he has not promoted it as being superior, or recommended it. He said it is possible. It is possible. Just because YOUR advice isn't harmful, doesn't mean anyone who gives contrary advice is automatically an ***.

Everything I saw in his posts I agree with, and I see nothing matching your description. We can't go around calling people "asses" (which by the way means donkey) just because they state a fact. Could it hurt someones tortoise? Absoloutely. Every time there is a post about calcium and someone says "a little is good" should we worry that someone new to the community might think "if a little is good, a lot is great! A bottle a day!"? Our conversations can't be limited because they "may appear to advocate risky practices". We can't be like parents discussing inappropriate things in a hushed voice because children are near and they MIGHT hear.

If he was popping in to say, "Haha, I mix all species together and have no problems. Everyone should do it and anyone saying anything otherwise is an idiot" then there would be a problem. Pointing out possibilities is not a problem.
 

Tom

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I never called anyone any name. I stated that his words and behavior made him look like an ***, and they do. There is a difference between "You are an ***.", and "Your bad behavior makes you look like an ***." The latter gives the benefit of the doubt that the person might not actually be an ***.

Peter, I just told you that this is based on a long history. Not the preceding few paragraphs. He and I have been at this for years and he takes every opportunity to try an make me look bad and himself superior. But he's subtle about it. Unfortunately, a lot of his shenanigans, and mine too, have been deleted by the mods over time, so you can't go back and read it.


Baoh said:
You take an unnecessary risk every time you take a shower. I am assuming you shower.

This is a ridiculous argument and not relevant.


Baoh said:
I do not recall a time I have promoted it (as being inherently superior) over keeping solitary animals or keeping multiple individuals within a species. I do provide a counter-perspective to dogmatic demonization, however.

I never said you did. I said that your incessant arguing with the people who recommend against mixing species, because they have seen the destruction it can cause, gives the APPEARANCE that you promote it. And there is no "demonization" , dogmatic or otherwise here. Just pointing out the obvious and trying to help other tortoise keepers not make common mistakes.

Who is it you are trying to help here?
 

RedfootsRule

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The best way to handle bad behavior is to ignore it. The best way to encourage it is to respond to it. I've dealt with what people call "trolls" on many forums; a heated exchange is exactly what they look for and desire.

Have a good day :).
 
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