Moral/Ethical Business Dilemma

KarenSoCal

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I'm so sorry, Tom. I know this is very unsettling for you.

Do you have a "gut" feeling about this customer? Do you feel that they were negligent in any way? Or that they are trying to scam you?

As others have said, you will never know, for certain, the cause of the baby's death. But assuming they are reputable, responsible people, they are hurting at the loss of their pet. The likelihood is that they did love him and nurture him to the best of their ability.

Without admitting any fault, I think you could use this sympathetic approach to refund half the price, or offer another tort at half off.

As said by another, your financial loss is not the issue. But the goodwill gained by "I am so very sorry this happened to you" is priceless. Everyone loves a vendor who genuinely empathizes with his customer, especially when it involves a living being. I truly believe you will feel better about the entire episode when you look back on it.
 

Dizisdalife

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@Tom, I agree with Len's advice. Offer them a replacement tortoise or send them money. I think you will feel good about it later.
 

leotortoise1

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I'm a tortoise newbie but I'm in the customer service business, understand client patterns, and the importance of a peaceful night of sleep. You reached out to check on the baby, more than ten days passed with no contact, and there was no indication or assistance requested if the baby was going downhill (Again, I'm no expert and I don't know how fast or out of the blue something like that could happen but it wasn't a tiny baby it was at least 6 months and they know they can call on you for help if needed). In my experience, I'm not sure sending them another tort would lead to the peaceful sleep because they're asking for money and not a replacement which most people would do immediately because they know your stellar reputation.

My recommendation would be to respond in your own words something like the following:

Dear ____,
I was shocked and very sad to read your text and I am truly sorry for your loss. In _____ years and over ______ numbers of babies, I pride myself in never losing a baby. I put great time and care into hand-raising my babies to ensure all my torts are over 6 months, at least 100grams, healthy and thriving so I can be confident that I am shipping only the healthiest baby to its' new family. I also go to great lengths to not only education my new families, but I also spend hours online each day teaching others proper care and husbandry to avoid loss or harm. I have never had the need for a health guarantee and I am confident that the animal you received was in excellent health, but I do this for the love and share in you and your family's pain. I will refund half the purchase price of your tort if you feel it is necessary. I am truly sorry for your loss,

ps - then, if you have another youngster available instead of sending it to them, I'll happily pay for their half refund and the new baby and shipping for us in full - lol - just kidding (well, not really I'd happily do that).

I'm really sorry you're going through this. Everyone knows you'd only raise and send the best babies available. Yes nature can be tricky and the animals can't communicate with us, but as a family owner who wanted to celebrate a birthday - it seems there would've been a phone call or at least some sort of insight into how to prevent it if there's something to keep it for happening to others. Sounds like they're just asking for some money back and unfortunately, sometimes that's the easiest way to close a chapter and move forward. Good luck and don't let it get you down - you do amazing things for so many.
 

wccmog10

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If it were me, I would not refund any money. I would maybe offer half price on another animal, but I understand having reservations about doing that since there is a good chance that they mistakingly killed the last one.

Offering half the money back, or half price on another animal sound the same on the surface, but in one situation Tom is paying out money, in the other he is still adding money to his bank account. So they are different in my opinion.

In no way do I think Tom is responsible for doing anything. But I also understand the customer is upset after spending their hard earned money on a tortoise only to have it die, unfortunately people always want mistakes to be other people’s fault instead of their own. I feel like Toms track record speaks for itself, and that he doesnt need to worry about “bad press” from this one event.
 

ascott

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I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.

I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.

Babies were hatched 6-9 months prior. 50 in total. All are now 80-100+ grams and thriving. I've got 14 left and the others have been sold and shipped all over the country into a variety of environments and enclosure types. As far as I know, all are doing well and there have been no problems.

The baby in question was shipped on January 3rd. I shipped it with a heat pack and a thermometer that records highs and lows. Temp in the insulated shipping box was between 84 and 64. No delays or problems with shipping. Customer said appetite was a little low on the day of arrival, but then it was fine after that. Customer reports daily soaks, and that temps are good in the enclosure. On June 8th, customer inquired about the tortoises birthdate, so they could celebrate annually, and all seemed good.

I inquired by text on how the baby was doing on Jan 19th and the answer was: "Looks good. It eats and poop well and is also active" No further contact until this morning.

At 8:11am this morning I get a text saying that the baby has died. Customer reports the temperatures and equipment used and I see no obvious problem. Soaking water was a little too hot (30-40C), but shouldn't be fatal. All else seems fine.

Customer is requesting a half refund. Customer thinks: "...our responsibility is half half."

No warranty was discussed at any time. Customer never asked about a guarantee and I never offered one. I don't sell anything but perfect healthy babies. I'm just a small private hobby breeder and as such, all of my babies get tremendous individual care and attention. I handle, inspect and care for them all daily. If ever there was a problem, I'd know every detail.

What say you all? Should I refund half the money? All of it? None of it? Please feel free to be blunt and honest with me.

Nope. Tom, I would not.
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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Tom
I will say this all wrong . And I hope this will not hurt our friendship . But I’ve been here along time and I’ve seen posts on here from people feel they bought the best cause they bought from @ Tom ! I think what ever you decide you will consider your repation first and foremost. And the torts death isn’t your fault.But one sale isn’t worth the respect of a lot of new comers ! Good luck with your sleep . And don’t forget it’s not your fault !![emoji217]
 

Pastel Tortie

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@Tom - We know it isn't your fault. You know it isn't your fault. You aren't obligated to do anything. That being said, you probably will feel better if you do SOMETHING, whether it's a partial refund on the tortoise or a discount on another one (along with a gentle reminder to please do you a favor and make sure the soaking water stays within given temperatures, just in case that had anything to do with it before).

Yes, it sort of sets a precedent, but realistically... How often is this type of thing likely to happen? Now that it's happened ONCE, its even LESS likely to happen again. (We know you Tom, and we know your care, attention and precautions will only become further honed after this.) You have a right to handle these things on a case by case basis. If there is a policy you feel comfortable implementing, go ahead, but if you are not comfortable with it, I do not feel it is necessary (in YOUR case). I would say the same to @ALDABRAMAN.

If this were a pattern, some indicator of a possible genetic defect, then some disclaimers and policy making would be in order. But this isn't a pattern, and there is no reason to think it will become one.

The veterinarians that see my animals send condolence cards when one of their patients passes on. It's a good reminder and acknowledgement that yes, it matters. You're the breeder, not the veterinarian, but I think at the end of the day, the family mourning the loss of their tortoise need to know that yes, it matters. I think that as long as you keep that in mind and successfully convey (repeatedly if necessary) that yes, it matters, you will be at peace with it.
 

Tom

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Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies and supportive comments.

The customer took it out of my hands and took it to arbitration with the payment company. I asked for some time to consider everything, and my plan was to offer half the money back, as many of you suggested, but the customer took that decision out of my hands. I did offer a replacement at half price, if we could figure out what went wrong with the first one. My customer told me that he didn't trust that I'd send him a healthy animal or that I'd ship it correctly and declined my offer. He also went from asking for half of the money back, to asking for all of it back. He said that if we couldn't reach an agreement, he thought it would be better to let a third party decide.

The payment company found in my favor. I'd have been pretty pissed if they hadn't, but I really can't say that I'm happy that they did. What I wish is that something could have been said or done to save this baby. I wish I had another happy customer with another healthy tortoise. I don't think this was an attempted scam, although I guess it could have been.

The whole thing doesn't sit well with me. This is not what I want to deal with in my hobby. This is not a business for me. This doesn't pay my bills. I do it because I love it, and I want to share that joy with others. This customer is not experiencing joy, and I'm not happy about it.

I'm just going to try and put it behind me and move on to better days. If my customer ever reads this, I am wishing good things for you and your family, and I'm sorry that your baby didn't make it.
 

wellington

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Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies.

The customer took it out of my hands and took it to arbitration with the payment company. I asked for some time to consider everything, and my plan was to offer half the money back, as many of you suggested, but the customer took that decision out of my hands. I did offer a replacement at half price, if we could figure out what went wrong with the first one. My customer told me that he didn't trust that I'd send him a healthy animal or that I'd ship it correctly and declined my offer. He also went from asking for half of the money back, to asking for all of it back. He said that if we couldn't reach an agreement, he thought it would be better to let a third party decide.

The payment company found in my favor. I'd have been pretty pissed if they hadn't, but I really can't say that I'm happy that they did. What I wish is that something could have been said or done to save this baby. I wish I had another happy customer with another healthy tortoise. I don't think this was an attempted scam, although I guess it could have been.

The whole thing doesn't sit well with me. This is not what I want to deal with in my hobby. This is not a business for me. This doesn't pay my bills. I do it because I love it, and I want to share that joy with others. This customer is not experiencing joy, and I'm not happy about it.

I'm just going to try and put it behind me and move on to better days. If my customer ever reads this, I am wishing good things for you and your family, and I'm sorry that your baby didn't make it.
Tom, I/we know how much you care. This is not on you at all. You know this and so do we.
It's kinda dirty that they didn't work with you with however you wanted to work it out. That's kinda dirty on their part. Maybe a sign they weren't the best tortoise owner after all. If they are a member of this forum they know the kind of person you are. If they become a member, they will learn quickly, they should have stuck with you one way or the other.
Live arrival is the only guarantees I have seen. I never thought to ask for money back the time I purchased a lizard from a well known reptile seller that died within a month of owning it. It arrived live that's all they promised.
This is totally on them.
 
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Redfool

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@Tom, good to see the arbitrator absolved you of all responsibility. Might be a good thing that a second tort is not placed in the same situation. One’s bad, two’s worse. You attempted to resolve the situation and they took it elsewhere. Sleep well and keep supplying torts with a clear conscience.
 

ALDABRAMAN

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The customer took it out of my hands and took it to arbitration with the payment company.

~ WOW, This is one of the main reasons we only except wire transfers, cash and checks. It is rare we get checks, however we do and we hold the check for ten days (to ensure it clears and no issues) prior to releasing the tortoises for pick up. On thing with a check, if it does not clear it is a criminal offense, as of yet we have never had on not clear. Usually our sources prefer the other two methods. I have probably lost customers by not excepting pay pal, visa, etc., However it has never been a serious factor for us.
 

wccmog10

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Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies and supportive comments.

The customer took it out of my hands and took it to arbitration with the payment company. I asked for some time to consider everything, and my plan was to offer half the money back, as many of you suggested, but the customer took that decision out of my hands. I did offer a replacement at half price, if we could figure out what went wrong with the first one. My customer told me that he didn't trust that I'd send him a healthy animal or that I'd ship it correctly and declined my offer. He also went from asking for half of the money back, to asking for all of it back. He said that if we couldn't reach an agreement, he thought it would be better to let a third party decide.

The payment company found in my favor. I'd have been pretty pissed if they hadn't, but I really can't say that I'm happy that they did. What I wish is that something could have been said or done to save this baby. I wish I had another happy customer with another healthy tortoise. I don't think this was an attempted scam, although I guess it could have been.

The whole thing doesn't sit well with me. This is not what I want to deal with in my hobby. This is not a business for me. This doesn't pay my bills. I do it because I love it, and I want to share that joy with others. This customer is not experiencing joy, and I'm not happy about it.

I'm just going to try and put it behind me and move on to better days. If my customer ever reads this, I am wishing good things for you and your family, and I'm sorry that your baby didn't make it.

Wow, this isn’t really how I expected it to go. But I am glad for both parties that it is decided and the ordeal is over. I hope the buyer and seller can both move on to better days. All of us here know that the seller (@Tom) is one of the best hobbiests/breeders there is, so it hurts to see that the buyer did not think Tom would send a quality animal the second time. I understand that the buyers are hurting emotionally and financially, but those comments, and a refusal to work with Tom on a solution (or give him time to think about the situation) is not very resepectful. It’s to bad that this buyer will not have a chance to learn more about how good of a breeder Tom is, and that his animals are all quality.
 

g4mobile

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I purchased a Burmese Star baby from @Tom last October and it’s doing great. At no point would I have expected anything from Tom past 3-4 days, as my tortoise was eating and pooping fine. These are live animals and anything can happen in another persons care. Offering a discount for a replacement tortoise would be very kind, but not expected in my opinion. I’m sorry to hear one of your babies died and also about the circumstance this customer put you in.
 

turtles11756

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the star Tom sold and shipped clear across the country could not have been any healthier , if anything ever happens to her it would be 100% my fault. something happened after that tortoise left Tom. bet on it !
 

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