Multiple Bulb Setups for Large Enclosures?

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tortoisenerd

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Looking at getting a large enclosure, approx. 17 sq ft. Assuming due to room temps and compared to my current set up less than half that size, I'd need a MVB plus 2-3 60 W CHEs (I currently use 1 MVB + 1 CHE...we keep the house cold). Using a lamp stand for each bulb/fixture is an option that is safe and adjustable, but not the prettiest and probably not cheapest. Wondering if anyone else has a good idea?

I'm almost thinking of some sort of structure built over the enclosure to mount the bulbs, but I really want it vertically adjustable and very stable/safe. I love the ZooMed lamp stand I have for the MVB, but the CHE clamped to a board laid over the enclosure has never been adjustable to my liking. Anyone have photos of what they use for multiple bulbs that is adjustable vertically? Anything off the shelf or with minimal construction skills necessary? A tension rod (think shower curtain rod, but I'd hope for something skinnier) with the CHE clamped was my first idea, but not as stable as I'd like as the rod can wiggle loose.

Or, am I thinking this all wrong and I need to have something more efficient for heat? Will I want to consider more light too? Adding a light bulb or two to the MVB + 2-3 CHEs is talking a lot of bulbs! Right now I think the amount of light from ambient + MVB is sufficient, and the new enclosure is a light tan plastic tub so it'll let a bit of light in, but I know Russians are a high light species. I won't consider under enclosure heat pads, but I think radiant panels are awesome, although I'm not sure how I would go about rigging them up as I'd need some sort of over tub structure, and these would block access to the enclosure (will these work with a plastic tub enclosure?).

What do you all do for heating & lighting a large indoor enclosure (> 10 sq ft) when a MVB is used as the primary source?

Thanks!
 

Balboa

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Why not heat pads? You're right, with an open top CHE are inefficient. Seedling Mats would work nicely to provide a nice natural heat, and as heat rises, are far more efficient.

Is this for Adults, Juvies or Babies? IMH and NewB Opinion there are different needs for each.

Generally speaking its tough to come even close to natural light illumination levels. Our homes usually qualify as DEEP shade.

For just a little more heat and light I suppose a couple halogen floods in brooder fixtures suspended by chain from the ceiling could work nicely. (Is this one of those christmas tree totes?) I'm envisioning kinda long and narrow, so maybe 1 CHE in a brooder, Next to 1 Halogen in a brooder, and then the MVB in a brooder. With the addition of an extra hook on the chain you can suspend the light up and away for access when needed.

Hope some of this helps spark an idea :)
 

coreyc

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As far as heat have you looked in to Radiant heat panels they come in a few sizes from 28-160 watt I just ordered one from Reptile Basics Inc for my new table it should be here on Friday I will let you know how they work after I set it up
 

PeanutbuttER

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This is an interesting heat option for large, or even multiple, set ups.

http://www.bigappleherp.com/Flex-Watt-Heat-Tape

From what I can tell you put this beneath the enclosure same as a heat mat.

I have a big open top (only currently) cage and am planning on using the heat rope found on the same site. That stuff you can lay down directly into the substrate because it's waterproof.
 

Yvonne G

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On some of my "hospital" habitats, which are outside under the car port, I have a piece of 1x1 laid across from side to side. Then I wrap the electrical cord around and around the 1x1, hanging the clamp light fixture (minus the clamp, which I always take off) about 12" over the substrate. I also have a piece of plywood covering the habitat to keep the heat in.

Hospitalhabitat-1.jpg


hospitalhabitat-2.jpg


Hospitalhabitat-3.jpg


Hospitalhabitat-4.jpg


I have vowed to not have any habitats in the house over the winter, and this arrangement works well for me. I prop the lid open on sunny days, and it stays closed when its cold. I'm able to keep the temp in the upper 70's during the day and at night, even when its down past 32 degrees, the temp inside the habitats stays in the 70's. Directly under the light its around 105 degrees. I use a black light for night and a regular incandescent bulb for days.
 

J. Ellis

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If you are looking at undertank heating, Flexwatt is a good choice. We used it for years with our geckos and snakes. Requires a little bit of knowledge of electricity, soldering, a thermostat or rheostat and you're all set!

If you do not use a thermostat or rheostat the tape could get over 125-130 degrees. Some people have even melted tubs and plastic enclosures when they didn't use anything. The CHEAPEST option I have found is a light dimmer as seen here. I've used Flexwatt and dimmers for over 10 years and it has worked perfectly for me.

Due to the potential risk of a fire hazard with improper installation, I suggest you hire a professional electrician to wire the heat tape and dimmer switch. I do not guarantee the safety of the product. If you do-it-yourself it may catch everything on fire.
 

tortoisenerd

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-this is for one tort, a 2yo Russian tortoise, currently 4 inches SCL and expected to get 4-6 inches SCL
-I like a gradient from 70 to 95, and our house gets as low as 60 F in winter, so we do need significant heating
-17 sq ft Vision plastic tub (68 by 35 inches, 14 inch height), upgrading from a 7 sq ft area tort table (16 by 66 inches, 18 inch height)
-don't feel comfortable with any type of heat from underneath
-don't want to block the view from the top much more than a light fixture (ie. radiant panels or a board over a significant portion is not desirable)...this enclosure is in the middle of the house so our tortoise can be part of the family...its at eye level on top of a cabinet
-don't want to suspend anything from the ceiling as we probably have 9 or 10 ft ceilings and we want it to blend into the house (the huge enclosure in the middle of the room and light fixtures over it is bad enough!...its the first thing you see when you walk into our home)
-don't want anything that if a rheostat failed or it was installed wrong I could have a fire...sorry but fire is my biggest fear in life...having a shell baby who lives on wood substrate with fire hazards all around him freaks me out, so I don't want to add more risk to the mix...barely comfortable with heat bulbs with a cage over it and a fail safe clamp as it is!
-moving the enclosure to somewhere else in the house or outside isn't an option, and I'm pretty much set on this giant plastic tub as we've ruled out a metal stock tank and building another table, and we do want to give Trevor that much square footage as he's a m99.9% indoor tort unfortunately (so yes, I convinced my husband to spend $350-$450 on a plastic tub--found somewhere that quotes $150 shipping instead of $250--woo hoo for both points!)
-with one tort/enclosure, the electricity savings payoff would take quite a while for the fancier more expensive heating setups

Yvonne-How do you feel about the safety of wrapping the cords around the horizontal support? We could install something like that easily and it would let me adjust the height (ie. temperature), but I'm not totally sold on wrapping cords in case the cord frays or something (we could put a cage over the fixture in case of total failure)...as it seems like more of a fire risk that way. Your solution seems closest to what I was looking for. We could drill holes in the plastic enclosure and insert wood dowels to hang the CHEs by inside the enclosure, and use lamp stands for the MVB and one other nice bright house bulb (to limit the amount of fixtures outside the enclosure for aesthetics and not have to buy a ton of lamp stands). We can cover select parts of it kinda like I do now with one board over part of the table mostly to clamp a CHE to, but to help keep some heat in if needed, such as one cover on each end, but still get a good view in for most of it. The photos were very helpful. :)

Anyone know a modification to Yvonne's set up to have fixtures hanging from a dowel without wrapping cords? Anything similar that might look a bit neater, such as hanging fixtures?

I imagine once I get the enclosure I will have to tweak with it for a couple days while I keep Trevor in his old enclosure. Thanks everyone! Sorry to be so negative...seems like I know more what I don't want than what I do want.
 

Balboa

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LOL yes, if I viewed you as a customer, you'd be one of THOSE customers, but luckily I view you as a friend, which makes me try harder at coming up with a suitable solution. But dang... this is a tough one.

Thank you for including all the details, it really does help, but I am a bit stuck in offering helpful solutions. I'd guess you probably will need an impressive bank of CHE fixtures to adequately heat that size open top enclosure in those kind of ambient temps, and as this is an adult, or nearly so tortoise, will also need adequate daytime light.

I will say this, and I feel safe and in my professional grounds here (I'm an electrician), what Yvonne does is a nono. Practical, yes, can't say I've never done anything similar, but dang it makes me want to rush over to her house and help her set that up right. To the best of my knowledge, those type of fixtures are NOT rated to hang by their cords. There are fixtures that are designed for that purpose, however. (nor is that cable likely rated to support a fixture). A better way would be to hang the fixtures on cable or chain independant of the cord.

I can understand the desire to not employ under tank heating, and respect that, but will stress that in MY professional opinion, heating lamps are a GREATER fire risk than properly designed and installed undertank heating. That being said, I have limited faith in "pet grade" solutions.

Were I in your situation, I would consider this:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
or
http://www.homedepot.com/Flooring-U...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

with appropriate thermostat controls as a SAFE way to heat an enclosure.

As you really don't want that, I'd be tempted to use something like this for overhead, as opposed to an array of CHE elements

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

A little costly, but certainly safer and prettier.

Another consideration would be these:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Fitted with cage covers, solidly mounted to a bracket, and yes something else you don't want, operated by a thermostat or dimmer. Barring thermostats or dimmers, it wouldn't be all that much carpentry to fabricate a bracket that could be raised and lowered as needed.

I know I'm not really coming up with suggestions you want, and I'm sorry for that, but safety is important, and these are the kind of "safe" solutions I come up with.

It just occured to me as a stepped away from the computer, that metal halides might be another good solution. Its totally untested (though of course the other above suggestions are untested as well) but metal halides produce a great amount of directed heat, light and uvb. Metal Halide all in one heat and uvb lamps are scheduled to come on the market at some point, but that doesn't help you now. In order to get sufficient UVB, the lenses would likely need to be removed and the fixtures fitted with appropriate shields to protect your family, and then UV levels checked with a meter, but all in all, it fits the bill... in theory :)

and dangit... I need to stop thinking so hard on it... possibly only heating a hide at night for sleeping.
 

jwhite

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Hi Tortoisenerd I have a large indoor enclosure for my russians. It is about 48 sq. ft. I have three different basking sites spread out in the enclosure. I also have five adults in there. I don't know how deep your substrate is going to be, but mine is about 6-8 in. so putting heat tape or under tank heaters I don't think would work for me. My enclosure is in the basement so I have a space heater running that helps regulate the rest of the enclosures temp.


Jon
 

tortoisenerd

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Balboa-Thank you for your detailed reply. I'll have to dig through it this weekend. Leaning towards installing a horizontal support and finding some small hanging hood fixtures for three CHEs to be hung inside the enclosure, and lamp stands for the MVB and a house light bulb for some extra light. I can cover part of it at the ends at least to help keep heat in (plexiglas?). Might do some cost calcs on multiple CHEs vs. using something like a space heater in that area.

Jon-so between the basking spots is it just the room temperature, which you've bumped up? Yes, I'll be doing about 6-8 inches of substrate as well with a 14 inch high enclosure (actually shorter sides than my current 18 inches, which seems great for keeping heat in--during the night without heat it stays up to 5 degrees warmer than room temperature just from keeping the heat in from the day). Is it a tort table that gives you 48 sq ft? Very cool!
 

jwhite

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Hi Kate, yes I have it about 72-74 F between the basking spots. The group seems to like the having the different spots they rotate between them during the day. Yes my table is 6' x 8' takes up a little bit of room, but since i am the inly one who uses the basement I don't really mind it's much nicer than having the group in seperate and smaller enclosures.

Jon
 

tortoisenerd

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I wish we had the spot for a tortoise room, as we'd just up the heating in there and it would make everything easier. But, having our shell baby right there in our great room is great as well.

I'll give an update if we decide on anything! Current plan is to research the heat & light situation and hopefully be able to order the tub to arrive during our xmas break so we'll be home for delivery and have the time to test the temps out.
 

Balboa

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I understand what you mean by wanting it right there with you. I'll likely be building a greenhouse someday for my redfoots, but not really looking forward to that day. I want them inside with us, not out in a separate building.

I dream of a tropical room in the house, built to handle the humidity without getting moldy, full of plants, and waterfalls and the like, a place where we can sit and enjoy our redfoots all the time. Not sure that dream has any chance of becoming real though, a greenhouse is far more likely.
 

PeanutbuttER

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Balboa said:
I understand what you mean by wanting it right there with you. I'll likely be building a greenhouse someday for my redfoots, but not really looking forward to that day. I want them inside with us, not out in a separate building.

I dream of a tropical room in the house, built to handle the humidity without getting moldy, full of plants, and waterfalls and the like, a place where we can sit and enjoy our redfoots all the time. Not sure that dream has any chance of becoming real though, a greenhouse is far more likely.

Why not just build the greenhouse on to your house?

Like this one :)
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/23/4f/59/the-greenhouse-conservatory.jpg

or like some of these
http://www.glasshut.com/lean2.html

Growing up I built a greenhouse/hawk house and it wasn't too bad. Half of the building is a green house and half was the hawk house that we used. The cool thing was that the greenhouse heated the hawk house in the winter, and since we dug a small surface well under it, we didn't need to run any water out to it. Anyhow, back to my point, just build an addition to your house. That way you'll still be able to see them inside the house, but they'll still get the greenhouse. :)
 

Balboa

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PeanutbuttER said:
Why not just build the greenhouse on to your house?

Like this one :)
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/23/4f/59/the-greenhouse-conservatory.jpg

or like some of these
http://www.glasshut.com/lean2.html

Growing up I built a greenhouse/hawk house and it wasn't too bad. Half of the building is a green house and half was the hawk house that we used. The cool thing was that the greenhouse heated the hawk house in the winter, and since we dug a small surface well under it, we didn't need to run any water out to it. Anyhow, back to my point, just build an addition to your house. That way you'll still be able to see them inside the house, but they'll still get the greenhouse. :)

that's exactly what I was thinking Peanut, especially the first one! Thanks for the links, could prove helpful.
its not so much the difficulty, as cost. For an addition (in my locale at least) I'd need permits, architectural drawings, extend the house foundation, etc. I could probably get away with one of those lean-tos, but still could get "bit" if I didn't get it permitted. An out-building, however, as long as its under 120sq ft, requires no permit or plans etc., easy cheezy :)

and oh poop, just realized we sidetracked the thread nonono sorry Kate.
 

BuffsTorts

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I mount my lights, and use chain along with the wire to adjust the height of the lights.
So just make the 'arc' higher then you need it, so you can lower or raise the lights as needed.

I have 6 lights on a 10ft x 3ft cage.

2 MVB's to make 2 basking, and then the rest are regular household 60-100w
 

tortoisenerd

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No problem--kinda on the same topic anyways...having your tort in with the family vs. having the outdoor set up. :)

BuffTorts-Did you buy the fixtures with the hanger already installed? If so, what type? I have one of those extra deep hood fixtures for my MVB with a hanger on it, but hoping to go a little smaller for CHEs. Do you know how the heat gradient compares when using a CHE in a hood vs. cage fixture? Right now I have one CHE in a cage fixture. Do you think this would work well? The photo has a nice comparison between what I have for my MVB and the mini one I'm thinking of for the CHEs--basically the only one I've seen with the hanging loops so far:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=15467
 

Balboa

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Anal Electrician mode again,

CHE must go in cage type fixtures to satisfy their UL Listing. (Technically I've only found a UL listing for Zoo Med, and its using the Zoo Med brand fixture)

The reason I point this out is that if heaven forbid their happens to be a fire, Insurance Companies have a way out of paying if they find that the UL Listing is voided. Apparently UL feels that dome fixtures allow for too much heat accumulation creating a fire hazard.

Of course folks do it all the time and are fine, but all it takes is one time, and one of us will have a horror story to tell.
 

Balboa

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I was thinking about that earlier, and its something I really should research. As far as I understand it, nope, has to be the zoo med, which of course stinks as not everyone wants to mount it in a way doable with that fixture.

Logically, as long as you use an appropriate comparable solution you're good, but those days are changing. I imagine the place to question on that would really be the insurance company.

-would they only cover you for an appliance that was UL listed, installed correctly per directions and malfunctioned and caused a fire,
-would they not cover you for a non-ul listed applaince that caused a fire.
if they do cover non listed appliances as long as they are installed per directions, maybe you're better off with a non listed appliance, but make darn sure you keep those directions in a fire safe.

I have a fellow electrician friend who's home burned down from electrical failure (ironic eh?) Luckily for him he hadn't cut corners and was fully covered. They traced it to a malfunction in a fluorescent fixture in the garage. Burned to the ground.

Like I said, I need to research this topic better. Many things we use all the time could be putting us at great financial risk. I just know the rules from the installer end. Listed parts only, per directions. Period. :)
 
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