My 2017 South African Leos

[MichaelS]

Some new photos of this group...


They are out growing their transport bin.



Some outside time



Lunch time in their closed humid chamber - feeding on soaked Mazuri and chopped hibiscus leaf salad.



Updated growth chart. Lots of varying growth rates in this group. For reference Chip and Flo are clutch mates and the other four are clutch mates. They are coming up on a year old in mid May and at least 2 maybe 3 will hit 500g by then

 

[diamondbp]

Some new photos of this group...


They are out growing their transport bin.
View attachment 237377


Some outside time
View attachment 237378


Lunch time in their closed humid chamber - feeding on soaked Mazuri and chopped hibiscus leaf salad.
View attachment 237379


Updated growth chart. Lots of varying growth rates in this group. For reference Chip and Flo are clutch mates and the other four are clutch mates. They are coming up on a year old in mid May and at least 2 maybe 3 will hit 500g by then
View attachment 237381

whats the early guesses on the sexes for your new group?

 

[Kasia]

Some new photos of this group...


They are out growing their transport bin.
View attachment 237377


Some outside time
View attachment 237378


Lunch time in their closed humid chamber - feeding on soaked Mazuri and chopped hibiscus leaf salad.
View attachment 237379


Updated growth chart. Lots of varying growth rates in this group. For reference Chip and Flo are clutch mates and the other four are clutch mates. They are coming up on a year old in mid May and at least 2 maybe 3 will hit 500g by then
View attachment 237381

Did you run out of names after the first two?

 

[MichaelS]

whats the early guesses on the sexes for your new group?

- Flo has the longest tail and biggest anal scutes of the six, so I'm still going male.

- 2 Dot has the shortest tail and smallest anal scutes and their tips are pretty close together, so I'm still going with female.

- Chip is doing the tale wagging thing as of late and is the fastest grower, so I'm going male.

- 3 Dot has nothing really standing out either way except the slow growth relative to the group.... praying female!

- 1 Dot Butt is a fast grower but the tail has thickened up a bit an looks more 'short and squatty' than before so that one is giving me mixed signals. My earlier guess was male and I'm still leaning that way.

- Heart Side is a tough one also no real signs either way other than slower growth (4th biggest) in the group. Praying female on this one too.

 

[MichaelS]

Did you run out of names after the first two?

Hahaha... when you get a group of six all at once and won't know the sex for a year or two or three or four or.... naming gets tough, couple that with the fact that I will sell off the extra males at some point (at a premium price to @diamondbp ) so don't want to get too attached. They all looked so similar when I first got them I just named them based on carapace markings. It was much easier naming my kids

 

[Tom]

Michael, I want to thank you for the continual updates. I'm looking forward to seeing what we can learn from your experiences compared to mine and others. I want to see if my theory on slower initial growth for females holds any water, or if it was just coincidence.

 

[no one]

Do I understand this correctly, slower groth is more for females in your experience? I tought that would be a male thing, because they will stay smaller.
Tale wagling for males, that I've read before. Also that males will hide their tail more. I find this fassinating... Cause I have to wait for Turt and Indu to grow up.

 

[Bambam1989]

Do I understand this correctly, slower groth is more for females in your experience? I tought that would be a male thing, because they will stay smaller.
Tale wagling for males, that I've read before. Also that males will hide their tail more. I find this fassinating... Cause I have to wait for Turt and Indu to grow up.

This depends on the species. In sulcatas and leopards the males get larger than females. In the species that the female gets larger this theory wouldn't apply.

 

[Bambam1989]

This depends on the species. In sulcatas and leopards the males get larger than females. In the species that the female gets larger this theory wouldn't apply.

Of course I could be wrong and may get corrected[emoji28]

 

[no one]

This depends on the species. In sulcatas and leopards the males get larger than females. In the species that the female gets larger this theory wouldn't apply.

Ah, I wasn't aware that the males get bigger in Sulcata's and Leopards. That makes sence...

 

[Tom]

Do I understand this correctly, slower groth is more for females in your experience? I tought that would be a male thing, because they will stay smaller.
Tale wagling for males, that I've read before. Also that males will hide their tail more. I find this fassinating... Cause I have to wait for Turt and Indu to grow up.

In my initial group of 36 SA leopards back in 2010, I cherry picked all the fastest growing and most active individuals and sold off the other 24. I ended up with 11 males out of the 12 babies that I kept. I kept track of several that I sold and what I noticed was that, initially, the males grew much faster then the females and were much more boisterous. At around 4 years old, the females hit a growth spurt and caught up to and surpassed the males. I have heard of 60-75 pound male SA leopards, but not seen these. I have seen lots of 24" females and males.

So my thinking is that the slower growing babies will generally turn out to be the females and the much more noticeable faster growers are male. Time will tell, and I'm trying to keep track of this with the help of tortoise keepers like Michael that have groups and track the growth. In this type of tortoise, we can usually sex the males at about 18 months old, but certainly by 24 months old.

 

[MichaelS]

This depends on the species. In sulcatas and leopards the males get larger than females. In the species that the female gets larger this theory wouldn't apply.

Yes in sulcata the males do get quite a bit larger than females but in Leopards it depends on the local of origin as to which sex gets larger.

Most of the Leos available in the USA pet trade came from northern Africa, Kenya to be more precise, and in that region the females do get much larger, about twice the size as males.

However, Leopards from South Africa show a much closer size relation between male and female at maturity. The growth rate though is a different story as @Tom mentioned. It appears that males grow at a faster rate in the first few years of life than females (maybe to reach sexual maturity quickly to spread their seed?) then slow down while the females growth patterns are the opposite... growing slowly the first several years of life then having a big growth spirt catching up to males of the same age.

 

[Brit G]

How amazing it must be to see so many leos grow up side by side... their markings are beautiful!

 

[Slow and steady]

Michael or Tom, have either of you noticed a relation to head size or neck length in males/females, especially through early years? I ask because I have a 500g little one right now that always seemed to be trending male (tucked tail, "larger" head, narrower carapace) that has in the last few months, been looking and acting more female. Or is it a case of "once a block head, always a block head"?

 

[Tom]

Michael or Tom, have either of you noticed a relation to head size or neck length in males/females, especially through early years? I ask because I have a 500g little one right now that always seemed to be trending male (tucked tail, "larger" head, narrower carapace) that has in the last few months, been looking and acting more female. Or is it a case of "once a block head, always a block head"?

I haven't noticed any correlation with head or neck size. My males and females have similarly sized heads. The males do tend to crane their necks up more when they see me invading their territory, but the females can also stick their necks out just as far when they want to.

 

[diamondbp]

I haven't noticed any correlation with head or neck size. My males and females have similarly sized heads. The males do tend to crane their necks up more when they see me invading their territory, but the females can also stick their necks out just as far when they want to.

Agreed. I would say the only distinguishing limb difference is the hind legs/feet structure.

 

[Tom]

Agreed. I would say the only distinguishing limb difference is the hind legs/feet structure.

Yes. My adult females have very long back nails for digging nests. I haven't noticed the legs or feet being different. What are you referring to? I'll have a look see tomorrow.

 

[diamondbp]

Yes. My adult females have very long back nails for digging nests. I haven't noticed the legs or feet being different. What are you referring to? I'll have a look see tomorrow.

I've noticed the base of the back feet are larger in females (along with the toes like you state). And it seems that the distance between the knee and the foot is longer in females also. But I'm basing that solely on my young group.

 

[Tom]

I've noticed the base of the back feet are larger in females (along with the toes like you state). And it seems that the distance between the knee and the foot is longer in females also. But I'm basing that solely on my young group.

I'll check that out on my adults later today.

 

[MichaelS]

Michael or Tom, have either of you noticed a relation to head size or neck length in males/females, especially through early years? I ask because I have a 500g little one right now that always seemed to be trending male (tucked tail, "larger" head, narrower carapace) that has in the last few months, been looking and acting more female. Or is it a case of "once a block head, always a block head"?

I third what Tom and Byron said about the head and neck not really being a distinguishing characturestict between sexes.

Very interesting observations about the hind legs and nails. I will defenently look for that as this group ages.