My little guy won't eat his grass...

[Dougal]

So, I've moved little Dougal to his outside enclosure and he seems to be thriving, but since I fed him grape leaves, he quit eating the rye/bermuda grass and dichondra. He still loves clover, but I'm running out of the stuff I've got growing in the yard (funny that I spent 15 years trying to get the "weeds" out of the lawn and now am encouraging them!) Is there anything I can do to get him to start grazing? I will have a hard time withholding food, he gets visibly excited when I give him his food!

I have made a few improvements since these pictures were taken. There is a burrow and a globe mallow and a spot to put deer grass or something similar. Oh, and shade! Thanks you for all the advice. There is an amazing amount of disparate info out there on raising these adorable creatures and a result, I've made some pretty bad mistakes!

 

[wellington]

Try chopping the grape leaf up small and spreading them around in the enclosure. Making have to graze for them and while he's trying to get them he will hopefully be getting the other stuff along with the leaves.

 

[Tom]

So, I've moved little Dougal to his outside enclosure and he seems to be thriving, but since I fed him grape leaves, he quit eating the rye/bermuda grass and dichondra. He still loves clover, but I'm running out of the stuff I've got growing in the yard (funny that I spent 15 years trying to get the "weeds" out of the lawn and now am encouraging them!) Is there anything I can do to get him to start grazing? I will have a hard time withholding food, he gets visibly excited when I give him his food!

I have made a few improvements since these pictures were taken. There is a burrow and a globe mallow and a spot to put deer grass or something similar. Oh, and shade! Thanks you for all the advice. There is an amazing amount of disparate info out there on raising these adorable creatures and a result, I've made some pretty bad mistakes!

View attachment 239381 View attachment 239382

For babies like yours, you need to use tender, young, freshly sprouted grasses. I chop them up and mix them in with the other greens for the day. If you mince up the other greens and spray some water on them, the grass will stick to them.

On the other hand, if you are using grape leaves, clover, weeds and other "natural" type foods, I wouldn't worry too much about making him eat grass. That would be more important if you were feeding mostly grocery store greens. Most babies aren't too keen on grass, and most adults will eat it regardless of their past.

Also, speaking of other care sheets, babies do NOT do better outside full time. I've done multiple side-by-side experiments with clutch mates and babies do much better when kept mostly indoors in their stable temperature controlled environments. As a general rule of thumb, I like to put babies outside for about one hour per inch of tortoise. Once they reach 5-6 inches, I leave them outside all day, weather permitting, but still bring them in at night and leave them in on cool days.

 

[Dougal]

For babies like yours, you need to use tender, young, freshly sprouted grasses. I chop them up and mix them in with the other greens for the day. If you mince up the other greens and spray some water on them, the grass will stick to them.

On the other hand, if you are using grape leaves, clover, weeds and other "natural" type foods, I wouldn't worry too much about making him eat grass. That would be more important if you were feeding mostly grocery store greens. Most babies aren't too keen on grass, and most adults will eat it regardless of their past.

Also, speaking of other care sheets, babies do NOT do better outside full time. I've done multiple side-by-side experiments with clutch mates and babies do much better when kept mostly indoors in their stable temperature controlled environments. As a general rule of thumb, I like to put babies outside for about one hour per inch of tortoise. Once they reach 5-6 inches, I leave them outside all day, weather permitting, but still bring them in at night and leave them in on cool days.

Hi Tom! Thanks! I'm pretty sure I read that you need to move your babies out as soon as possible on the Arizona/Sonora Desert Museum website. They have an adoption program. Not that you are not correct. I have to admit I worry about my little guy out and find myself checking on him almost hourly. This time of year I'm more worried about heat than cold. You've given me another dilemma to think about.

 

[wellington]

Likely they have old outdated info. You wouldn't believe how much wrong outdated info zoos and vets have when it comes too tortoises.

 

[Dougal]

 

[Tom]

Hi Tom! Thanks! I'm pretty sure I read that you need to move your babies out as soon as possible on the Arizona/Sonora Desert Museum website. They have an adoption program. Not that you are not correct. I have to admit I worry about my little guy out and find myself checking on him almost hourly. This time of year I'm more worried about heat than cold. You've given me another dilemma to think about.

Almost all the DT care sheets say that. Many care sheets for many species say that. In the same way that every book you read on sulcatas will tell you they come from an arid environment and need dry conditions and dry substrate. Its wrong. All wrong. We've proven it over and over again.

You need to be soaking your baby daily and keeping it mostly indoors. Just do a search for bladder stones on this site alone. Its almost all DTs and its because people follow those care sheets. Those care sheets are literally a death sentence for DTs. Babies die of renal failure and adults die of bladder stones, all due to chronic dehydration which happens when people follow those care sheets.

 

[Dougal]

Almost all the DT care sheets say that. Many care sheets for many species say that. In the same way that every book you read on sulcatas will tell you they come from an arid environment and need dry conditions and dry substrate. Its wrong. All wrong. We've proven it over and over again.

You need to be soaking your baby daily and keeping it mostly indoors. Just do a search for bladder stones on this site alone. Its almost all DTs and its because people follow those care sheets. Those care sheets are literally a death sentence for DTs. Babies die of renal failure and adults die of bladder stones, all due to chronic dehydration which happens when people follow those care sheets.

Hi Tom! Here's a link to the AZ/Sonora Desert Museum care sheet. These guys really are experts. I do soak Dougal every day and keep his enclosure moist and he seems quite happy. I have, however taken your advice to heart and I think I'll bring him in more often.

https://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php#hatchlings

 

[Tom]

Here are my issues:

1. First paragraph: "This is the only food source they need until it is fully absorbed." Not true. Anyone who has ever hatched a tortoise knows this is not true. Babies begin nibbling while they are still IN the egg. They need to be moved into a brooder box after they leave their egg, and there should be food in the brooder box from day 1.
2. 2nd paragraph and in bold no less: "It is highly recommended that hatchlings be kept outside." False false false. This is literally a death sentence for a large percentage of hatchlings. This has been proven over and over again. Babies left outside in a CA or AZ backyard all day will dehydrate. The chronic dehydration damages their kidneys and they A.) Fail to grow, and B.) Get soft and die a few weeks or months later even though the new keeper is doing everything "right" and the baby seemed fine for weeks.
3. "Hatchlings can be kept in a plastic shoe or sweater box, or similar container." Wrong again. A shoe box is way too small once they are past the brooder box phase and their yolk sac is absorbed and and umbilical scar closed up. Sweater boxes with their low sides make warm temps and the needed moderate humidity impossible.
4. "Hatchlings should be maintained on a substrate of soil or gravel 1/4 - 1/2 inch in diameter. Sand and fine gravel should be avoided since they may ingest it, causing fecal impaction and gastrointestinal infections." Gravel? No. At least they got the no sand part right.

I don't have time, or the inclination to scrutinize the rest of it, but the first four points are enough to kill a hatchling. Some of the rest of it looks ok, like the food suggestions, but if it says to soak them anywhere, other than the hibernation part, I didn't see it. Babies need to be soak every day. Hydration is critical for hatchling tortoises of all species.

Please forgive my sensitivity on this subject, but understand that I've rescued DOZENS of these babies over the years. Every single person I rescued them from meant well and was trying their best to follow the care sheet advice. The care sheets are just wrong and I HATE watching babies die needlessly. I also HATE spending weeks or months of my time trying to bring them back from the brink of death from dehydration. I LOVE this species, and they are so easy to raise, IF they are simply kept hydrated. Outdoors all day, or indoors on dry substrate will dehydrate them. Soaking once a week, or never, is not enough. Some outdoor time is good for UV, grazing and exercise. Outdoors all day, like what most care sheets recommend, is a good way to kill them slowly.