My thoughts on humidity with tortoise babies, opinions please

[lovelyrosepetal]

I have been thinking a lot about this. I have read about all the people who post that their tortoise baby died and they were doing everything "right". I have read about it being, not failure to thrive, but because, in most cases, it was raised dry, before the person got it. After the person got it they did everything right and yet their baby died. I have read that it would have happened, regardless. I have also read, and believe, that pyramiding comes from not having enough humidity. I have read the stories about adults being smooth but living on a horrible diet. I have read the stories about the adults being horribly deformed by MBD and having disfiguring pyramiding, the list goes on and on. My thoughts on this are, "why"? Why would a tortoise grow up under these horrible conditions and live, while so many on here get them and, with proper care, die?

So, I wonder what others would think about my theory. I am throwing it out here and I would like your opinions. I wonder if, after being deprived of water for however long, a person gets it and then starts with the 20 minute to an hour soakings right from the start, every day, if it isn't that, that does them in. You know, like if you give a starving man too much food, too fast and then it kills them, if it isn't the same with a tortoise. Maybe if you soaked it less from the start and gradually upped the time and how often you soaked, if people would have better results? Maybe it is just too much water, too soon. What are your thoughts. This is just a newbies wonderings, so please be kind.

 

[Tortus]

I found this forum through google, and this is the first thread I read:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-12751.html#axzz25Mzqr6hZ

It's back when Tom was called roachman26. That was kind of confusing at first since I was wondering who they were talking to. But anyway, one guy said he kept his relatively dry, and whenever the humidity would skyrocket it would get sick even though the temps never dropped below 80.

So, you may be on to something. Maybe it's like a shock to their system. Since I got mine at 3+ weeks old, it's never been in less than 55% and has daily soaks. I now keep it between 70-90+% always depending on the area and time of day, and it's never gotten sick.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

One aspect of the high humidity thing that I don't recall seeing explicitly mentioned, yet it is included in most all the high humidity narratives subtext is the importance of air exchange. Moist air gets what could be called "stale" quickly. Most all the high humidity narratives also include a time period of outside, where air exchange is 100%. It is a good idea to "air out" those high humidity chambers etc. daily.

Will

 

[Neal]

So, I wonder what others would think about my theory. I am throwing it out here and I would like your opinions. I wonder if, after being deprived of water for however long, a person gets it and then starts with the 20 minute to an hour soakings right from the start, every day, if it isn't that, that does them in. You know, like if you give a starving man too much food, too fast and then it kills them, if it isn't the same with a tortoise. Maybe if you soaked it less from the start and gradually upped the time and how often you soaked, if people would have better results? Maybe it is just too much water, too soon. What are your thoughts. This is just a newbies wonderings, so please be kind.

I've thought about this before with a group of SA leopards I picked up about two years ago. The best I could tell, the tortoises were kept bone dry and only soaked twice a week or so. When I got them, I immediately soaked them daily and kept them very hydrated. Within a couple of days, several of them developed intestinal prolapse...I speculate that them being kept dry allowed minerals to build up, then when I got them and soaked them a lot, their bodies tried to push those minerals out and caused the prolapse. I have wondered if I would have taken it easier when I first got them. Kept the same routine as the person I got them from and gradually eased them into the way I do things....maybe I would have different results.

 

[lovelyrosepetal]

I have been wondering about this for a while. I don't know. I kind of would like to get a couple of tortoises started dry and then soak one constantly right away and then with the other gradually up the amount of soakings. I would always provide water for them to drink and spray them down, I just would not bombard one of them with water from the start. I am going to Utah and could pick up a couple in Phoenix that I know have been started on alfalfa pellets. I don't think I will because I don't have room for six adult sulcatas, four is stretching it, but I would like to. I know it would not be definitive but I wish I could because I think there might be something to my theory.

Unfortunately, Neal, your will never know but it does make a person wonder.

Will, I think that with my kind of closed chamber the air flow is probably fine. I open their enclosures a lot throughout the day, but it is definitely something to think of.

Tortus, I read the thread and certainly does make me think a lot about how people could improve their tortus care.

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Neal, I meant you will never know, not your. I typed that too fast.

 

[Laura]

You can always take them in and rehome them later...

I question the amount hatchlings are fed... in the wild.. they probably dont gorge themselves on fresh greens everyday. Unless they hatch when it plentiful, but since they seem to spend a lot of time underground.. they would not be eating that much..

It may be years before we know for sure... but I dont think someone is going to want to test it out by 'starving' thier babies... but it seem we hear all the time of these poor critters that are not cared for and they somehow live.. why? how?

 

[DeanS]

I rarely read everyone else's posts...just the one's that matter (in my book). But, this is what I've been saying from the start! Before I found this forum...before I met Tom...before anything!

For the most part, these animals are not being raised in their natural habitat! We make their biomes as natural as possible (in our minds). But there is no ideal when you take, let's say, an African species and attempt to raise it naturally in the US...or worse, Canada or the UK. So, there is nothing left but to improvise. From the start, I raised babies in a 'wet' mode. I live in the arid high desert...so there is no relative humidity. I bought babies that hatched from WC parents...but they were already showing signs of pyramiding. So, I implemented this wet method. Then when I brought them in at night, I left them in a terrarium with moistened (wet actually) coconut bark, and they started to thrive. I kept temps at 90F throughout with a 120F basking spot. The humidity stayed around 50%...and they continued to thrive. Last winter, I kept them in closed chambers with the temps the same. The humidity climbed to 75% and they thrived even more. I tried to do something totally different the last six months with the baby Sudans. I didn't fail! I just didn't like my results, so I reverted back to last year's methods...and they are starting to thrive...for the most part!

In a nutshell, I have seen OUTSTANDING results from animals kept in high humidity closed chambers...and Tom's Sudans are the MOST outstanding babies I've EVER seen...ANYWHERE.

 

[TortoiseBoy1999]

Let me just answer the one I KNOW I an answer. Most baby's die when people get them and they were cared for poorly and then someone gets the tortoise and then they care for it "properly" it's because of kidney failure. Their kidneys get messed up from having no water. THEN when some one gets him and care for it "properly" it's all ready to late :-( And their Kidneys are all ready to out of wack

 

[lovelyrosepetal]

I agree with you Dean. I really believe that to help keep a baby tortoise, sulcata and others, healthy, that they need high humidity and soaks daily. That is not really what I question. I know that Tom has the most amazing babies, I am sure that you and others have wonderful babies, but you all started them right. They are healthy and hydrated from the very beginning. My question is, if they are not started right, and then you do everything you should to keep them hydrated right from the start of getting them, if that isn't what hurts them. I wonder if it could be too much, if it is an overload of water, too soon. If you started them with the daily soaks not being daily. If you gradually upped it over a period of a couple of weeks or a month to get them where they should be. I just thought it might be a shock to their systems after having nothing. What do you think of that idea? Does it sound reasonable or is there something I am missing? If you could add what you know and your experience it would benefit me in my quest for more knowledge.

TortoiseBoy1999, I am guessing you put 1999 because of your age, if so, my oldest son was born in 1999, but that has nothing to do with your post. I am sure that the kidneys do get messed up from having no water. I just wonder if the water was introduced slowly, if the outcome would be different.

My theory is just my thoughts about why so many of them would die with proper care, while others survive with horrible care. I would think that so many of the adults that have never experienced proper care, who have survived, would have died before becoming adults because they were starved of water. Maybe they are just genetically stronger than the ones that die, but if they are the same, what causes them to die? I thought, maybe too much water, too soon. Usually the ones that die, here, are not very old and have not been had a very long time, but their care is good. They have water, they have humidity, they have a proper diet and in many cases, the temperature is right. I just thought this might help explain the "why". Any opinions contrary or supporting my theory would be beneficial to me and maybe to others, as well.

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Laura, I am very tempted to try it. I know of a few places in AZ that do not have their babies in the right conditions. My fear is what if I am right and the one dies, I would not know the signs to look for, I just don't have the knowledge or the experience that I would need to make sure that I did not inadvertently kill it. If I was Tom, Yvonne, Maggie, Dean, Baoh and many others on this forum, I would be able to more effectively help it, if it ran into trouble, but being me, I would probably end up killing it and then crying about it for weeks. My kids would want to have me committed. But I would love to try it and see what happens. I might do it and see what happens. I guess I could keep this experiment up here and then post any problems to make sure you all saw something I was missing, so I could change it. I will have to decide soon, I am leaving in a week.

 

[Tom]

I LOVE LOVE LOVE that you are thinking this way Rose. Never stop questioning. I'd really love it if you tried your experiment too. For it to be worth while you'd need to do it with two groups of babies. I'd like to see at least 6 babies done each way. As Laura pointed out, you could always sell the babies at the end of the experiment.

Here is my theory about why some make it and some don't. Often this happens with clutchmates that have all been raised together in the exact same conditions. There is no way to measure just how many nephrons or liver cells are damaged by dehydration in a live baby tortoise. Maybe one got a drop of water on a lettuce leaf that the other didn't and that was enough to keep more liver or kidney cells alive. Or maybe one stayed farther away from the desiccating heat source more of the time and so was slightly less dehydrated. Its really about the laws of averages. If you put 100 humans in a cold empty room and gave them no water and poor food, some would survive longer than others. There are numerous reasons why this might be. Also when you got them out of those conditions a percentage would still die later on, or have serious health complications due to the damage done by the dehydration.

Also, I recently learned of another cause of death for hatchlings. Many breeders leave the babies in their incubation containers for a few days while they are absorbing their yolk sacs. During this time they eat some of the incubation media. Many of these babies will survive a long time this way, but they just fail to thrive. Some pass the substrate and do just fine, while others don't. Who can say why? Is it because some babies ate more of the substrate than others? Is it because some are able to pass it while others aren't? I have never seen this happen with hatchlings from breeders that use a brooder box while their babies are absorbing their yolk sacs.

We are assuming that these later die offs are due to dehydration and the resulting complications, but there are multiple reasons why hatchlings can fail to thrive or die. Here are a few possibilities:
1. Dehydration and the resulting internal organ damage.
2. Intestinal impaction.
3. Cold night temps. Or day temps for that matter too...
4. Improper care of any sort from the keeper.
5. Bad diet.
6. Disease. This seems to be more common in the countries where it is more normal for people to mix species. I don't think this is coincidental. I get PMs all the time about this. It seems like everything is being done right and then I see a pic with three or four species all in the same enclosure and they can't understand why their radiated is sick... Also, many of us get tortoises from large scale breeders that keep multiple species. Sometimes they get in new stock that is wild caught. There is no practical way to 100% prevent cross contamination and I have seen babies with obscure diseases that are not commonly seen in that species, yet are very common in some of the other wild caught species that this person also keeps.

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I question the amount hatchlings are fed... in the wild.. they probably dont gorge themselves on fresh greens everyday. Unless they hatch when it plentiful, but since they seem to spend a lot of time underground.. they would not be eating that much..

In the case of sulcatas, they hatch during the rainy season and are literally surrounded by food. Their food is so thick and plentiful that just a couple of weeks into the rainy season you can't find them any more because they are hidden in their food. Still, no one knows how much of this they eat, but they do have at least the opportunity to gorge themselves as much as they want.

Also, I am really starting to question whether babies actually go underground much. My hatchlings that came out of the ground this summer all avoided the numerous gopher holes, vole holes, squirrel holes and adult sulcata burrows that were present and easily available. They ALL obviously avoided these holes and instead looked for above ground cover of one sort or another. Most of them were found stuffed into corners. They were literally all over the entire 7000 square foot enclosure and not one of them tried to use any hole. I have also noticed this with CDT and other captive hatched sulcatas. There is just no better way to avoid the heat, so I frequently make underground hideaways for them. I've tried several types and ALL of these babies continually avoid the underground areas even when I repeatedly put them down there in the heat of the day to "show" them how nice it is. They all come right out and find cover above ground and refuse to go back in. I don't usually see them digging out their own palettes until they are around 4". I don't see actually burrowing until they are around 6". Also, when I built my indoor housing with the underground levels, the hatchlings really had little interest in going down there. I kept putting them down there, and would occasionally find one down there, but they mostly chose to stay above ground. This is how it happens at my place anyway...

I'm planning a trip to Senegal to study this myself in a year or so. I'll keep you posted.

 

[lovelyrosepetal]

Wow, Tom! I never realized that the baby sulcatas did not go into holes in the wild. I think that is very important. I have never seen mine burrow into the ground outside when I had them grazing and when I had them inside they never really dug. They are starting to dig into their substrate, but that has happened recently, since hitting the 4" mark. I never even thought about it. It makes me wonder even more about what happened to my missing babies. Since making their enclosure more of a closed chamber they are not even seen around unless they are eating, basking or indulging in a soak. I have recently found it harder to find them because they have been digging into their substrate more. I never even thought about their size being a factor.

I also like the six points you brought up about what usually kills baby tortoises. It is something to think about, for sure.

I also would love to do an experiment on this subject but you are right about needing to have more test subjects. I just don't have an enclosure big enough to house that many babies. I am not good with tools and learned not to play with tools when you don't know what you are doing, if you happen to be me. My husband maybe could do it on R and R but I don't think he will have time. His living conditions have not been very good and they have him working around the clock, with this being the case I am sure he will want to relax and rest for the two weeks he will be home. But I am truly tempted on a small scale, if I could only figure out a way to do it. I don't know how to get the setup I would need, to pull it off. I am so tempted to try it. If someone had an idea I could implement, then I think you would be reading about another experiment in the near future. Such a tempting idea....

 

[Tom]

Rose, I don't have any idea what the wild babies do. No one does. I was just sharing some pertinent observations form my tortoises at my place. Seems likely that it would be the same, but I can't confirm or deny that yet.

Is there anyone that could help you build a 4x8 closed chamber? If you divide it down the middle, it provides the perfect opportunity to use different soaking regimes but have all other variables consistent.

 

[lovelyrosepetal]

I might be able to get someone to help me build a large closed chamber like that. I will ask some people I know and see what I can come up with. I will let you all know if I am able to do this experiment or not. I also have to get the go ahead from my husband, he thinks I spend way too much time on our tortoises as it is. He likes them but no where near as much as I do.

Also, Tom, I knew you weren't telling us what wild babies do. But, I still think it is important to know what you have observed in your wild babies. I am sure that there are many different factors that makes them do different things in the wild, but I still stick to my original statement and think that is really good to know. You just can't help it that you come up with things that are interesting and pertinent to the rest of us.

I am also looking forward to hearing how your trip to Senegal goes, in the future. Keep us posted with lots of pictures.

 

[lovelyrosepetal]

I don't think that I will be able to do this experiment any time too soon. The people I know who could build the enclosure are too busy to do anything for a few months. My husband is not too keen on the idea of sharing his R and R time with an experiment. He thinks after R and R would be okay but then I would not be able to get the tortoises. I guess I will just have to keep wondering if this would have been something that could have helped out or not.

Since I won't be able to do this, what are your thoughts? Does anyone have any experience or a guess if I could be right or wrong? Thanks for the opinions, they are appreciated.

 

[evlinLoutries]

U need to keep the humidity and of course watch their diet menu..

Cause everything is connect to each other, u need to do all correctly..

Gives a big space for them to walk, get to sun everyday, and water to drink, and a place to make them feel safe

 

[Zamric]

I don't think that I will be able to do this experiment any time too soon. The people I know who could build the enclosure are too busy to do anything for a few months. My husband is not too keen on the idea of sharing his R and R time with an experiment. He thinks after R and R would be okay but then I would not be able to get the tortoises. I guess I will just have to keep wondering if this would have been something that could have helped out or not.

Since I won't be able to do this, what are your thoughts? Does anyone have any experience or a guess if I could be right or wrong? Thanks for the opinions, they are appreciated.

What part of Oklahoma are you in? Im in Dallas and often travel up to Tulsa where my family lives. I love to build enclosures and I hasve a truck to transport them. I'd concider doing the building if you supply the materials.

Here's a sample of my work.

www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-45432.html
www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-46096.html
www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-46476.html
www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-46958.html

 

[KingInCulver]

interesting theories...i won't pretend to know anything about herp physiology, but as a former athletic trainer and physio student, i might offer up some kind of hyponatremia theory. in humans, specifically runners or athletes who lose water and salts, there is a danger of re-hydrating too much or too quickly which throws off the electrolyte balance. as mentioned already, maybe it has something to do with one dehydrated specimen's marginally used kidney suddenly being over-worked by the onslaught of fluids that it needs to filter, where that organ was not being used or was failing. it would make sense that there is some homeostatic principle that is disrupted that would be contributing to sudden hatchling failure or other incidents where there is a severe change in conditions. the animal is not prepared to adapt so rapidly.

again, just my two cents, i'm no authority. introducing the wet/humid/heat method in moderation is certainly a reasonable theory.

for the sake of discussion - what would the experiment parameters look like? in my mind you could certainly have more than two groups.
Group 1: dry method control group
Group 2: wet method control group
Group 3: dry method for X number of years, then wet method immediately
Group 4: dry method for X number of years, then wet method transition over the course of X number of weeks/months

ok, sorry to nerd out here. just an amateur's opinion.

 

[Tom]

These are all good thoughts and theories. I'd love to see them tested. Plenty of dry babies to try them out on...

I'm trying to envision how I would go about this. I guess could leave the doors cracked open in my enclosure to reduce humidity, NOT spray them, and start by soaking only once a week for a couple of weeks, then twice a week for a few weeks, then 3 times and so on...

I just don't know. If a baby has been severely dehydrated for weeks, enough to damage their internal organs, at some point water will need to be introduced... Doesn't seem like it would matter much to me if it was done once on the first day or everyday. The shock to the damaged organ is going to occur the first time they are given water, IF it even all works this way...

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

One aspect of the high humidity thing that I don't recall seeing explicitly mentioned, yet it is included in most all the high humidity narratives subtext is the importance of air exchange. Moist air gets what could be called "stale" quickly. Most all the high humidity narratives also include a time period of outside, where air exchange is 100%. It is a good idea to "air out" those high humidity chambers etc. daily.

Will

So here is the error in communication I found in this, my post. The tortoise is moved outside each day for X hours is sun/UV, right.

So the tortoise needs fresh air, not the enclosure, but if you are going to have the tortoise in the enclosure 24/7, then the enclosure needs to have an decent air exchange.

In lab vivariums I recall some ratio of total room exchanges per day or hour. This would work for an enclosed high humidity tortoise chamber as well. Move the air through a swamp cooler pad that has heated water on it, so it would be fresh warm humid air exchanging. I imagine a few hours each day would suffice.

I have not done this, but consider how would you maintain a stable enclosed cage environment and still have a fresh air supply? The swamp cooler pad with water from a heated tank would do the trick.

There is passive air exchange even in burrows. I have not been able to source someone's published account of the air turnover, but there is some, and so a sealed closed enclosure seems like it ought to have air turnover as well.

Will

 

[TortoiseBoy1999]

Going on about humidity and pyramiding..... What I have noticed is that my baby Leopard had some MINOR pyramiding and I was keeping his humidity up. But what I started to do is every hour I poor some warm water on his shell until his shell and body is completely covered from the water being poured (while he's on coco coir) he LOVES water so he doesn't mind and stretches his neck out towards the water. Now the pyramiding is smoothing out and he's looking smoother! I was doing the shell spraying, but it just seemed like it was to thin of a layer of water on his shell. I think the actual POURING of some water on his shell helps a lot!

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TortoiseBoy1999, I am guessing you put 1999 because of your age, if so, my oldest son was born in 1999, but that has nothing to do with your post. I am sure that the kidneys do get messed up from having no water. I just wonder if the water was introduced slowly, if the outcome would be different.

Haha, yes, I am 13