My tortoise refuses to eat his hay

[chaseswife]

I know of no official studies about all of this, but following the advice from this forum my baby sulcata is doing great. No sickness, smooth shell, lots of weight gain. This is Shrimp- he is 4 months old. He has quadrupled his weight since we got him at 3 weeks old. There are many many others on this forum that can tell you of very similar stories.

 

[Dizisdalife]

Anything with sand is a big NO. It not only causes compaction, it can cause irritation of the eyes as well. Yvonne, Tom and some of the more experienced keepers like orchid bark. I used coconut coir for the whole time my sulcata was kept indoors and never had a problem.

Once you get a substrate that can hold moisture you are going to want to have an enclosure that keeps that moisture from escaping into the atmosphere.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Since your original question dealt with your young sully not eating his hay, i was wondering exactly what kind of hay and in what way you are feeding? Are you also providing a wide variety of greens, and Mazuri tort feed? Everything ive read on here says that sulcatas won't eat dried hay until they are much older. Given that you are located in Iowa, I'm guessing thst you are feeding dried hay as opposed to fresh green stuff? Since your sully is still young, id suggest waiting 'til he's older to feed dried hay. Good luck!

 

[Yvonne G]

yeah...about the hay: Tortoises in Africa hatch out during the monsoon season. So they have plenty of green grass and plants to eat. Then as the season progresses and the grasses die and turn brown, the tortoises acclimate to eating a more brown diet. But when they're babies, they won't eat hay. Too hard for them to process it. If you really want them to eat hay, you can cut it up into really small pieces (with the scissors) and put it into a bowl of warm water for a short while to hydrate and soften it. Then mix it in with his greens.

 

[zenoandthetortoise]

This is no way intended to be rude, but can I please see some academic papers on the 80% humidity? As well as for the various substrates. It'll ease my worries if I can read about it from someone with doctorate and with certified, published material.

I completely understand this line of thought. You have on one hand, advice from a DVM and books on tortoise husbandry directly conflicting with the advice of strangers on the internet. However, how is the current approach working out for you? You may wish to consider an alternative set up. Personally, I have a similar fixation on peer-reviewed journals, but if you need a technical reference for validation, then that would seem to be your responsibility to find.
Lots of good journals out there, I usually start with 'Science' and 'Nature' and follow the citations.
Good luck to you and your tort.
Please share anything you find. Good research is appreciated.

 

[christinaland128]

No bad luck with coir here! My torts seem to be thriving. I've got a deep layer of organic topsoil, then a coir/forest floor mix on top.

 

[Tom]

This is no way intended to be rude, but can I please see some academic papers on the 80% humidity? As well as for the various substrates. It'll ease my worries if I can read about it from someone with doctorate and with certified, published material.

Your tortoise is already pyramiding.
The respiratory infections are caused by temps that are too cold. Usually night temps.
You will never be able to create the right conditions in an open enclosure like that.
Babies don't eat hay.
Rabbit pellets are much too dry and will contribute to even more pyramiding and dehydration.
Protein does not cause pyramiding. Growth in conditions that are too dry does.

I sympathize with your dilemma. I really do, but do some searching here on the forum and you will see that we know what we are talking about. Its new info and not many people outside of this forum have caught on to it yet. I have personally raised hundreds of tortoises of several species using the "monsoon season" techniques of hot and humid and it has not failed me once. Let that sink in for a minute... Minimum 80 degrees day and night, with 80%+ humidity and daily soaks for babies, and not one of them ever had a single problem. Zero vet visits for me after several hundred babies. Yet you've been to the vet for serious problems twice already with a single baby. There are hundreds of people all over the world using these techniques right now and they all get the same positive results. We have a Chinese member who posted my threads that someone had compiled and translated into Chinese.

If you keep doing what you are doing your baby will either grow very slowly and pyramided, or it might get sick and die. We'd like to help you. We know how it will go if you continue on the way you are, and we also know how it will go if you do it the way we are telling you.

Here are some threads that might convince you:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding-ii-the-leopards.18931/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/meet-toms-sulcatas.56465/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/


Here is a thread on what to feed them:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/


At the least we can try to help you with the RI problems. What are you using for night heat? I usually recommend a ceramic heating element hooked up to a thermostat. This will maintain ambient temps day and night, but it won't be easy in an open enclosure like that. All the needed electric heat is going to further dry things out, including your babies carapace.

Your are not going to have "... a beautiful, big, well formed tortoise in 5-8 years to show off to people." If continue on your current path.

 

[LittleSkittle]

OK I've done most of the readings and I'm convinced. Do I need to change to a glass tank? Even if there is a fear of compaction I'll try another substrate. What is the best sight to order coco coir? Money is tight so if there is another solution to keep humidity high I'd like to hear it.

 

[Yvonne G]

You can use a big plastic tub. Glass is too expensive. Or you can just keep what you already have and cover it. But with a moist substrate you may want to line it to protect the wood. A plastic shower curtain will do it.

Tom buys his orchid bark at a home improvement store. Go to a plant nursery and ask for orchid bark...but buy the kind that comes in small pieces. The large pieces are hard for babies to walk on. I generally will put down a 2" layer of potting soil, then about an inch of orchid bark over that.

Here's what one of my baby habitats looks like:



They're pretty messy little critters. Then I cover the whole thing, lights and all, with cooking foil. This keeps in the moist, warm air and keeps out the cold house air.

 

[Yvonne G]

This one's a little cleaner. You can see the light hanging straight down and the small pieces of orchid bark:

 

[leopard777]

OK I've done most of the readings and I'm convinced. Do I need to change to a glass tank? Even if there is a fear of compaction I'll try another substrate. What is the best sight to order coco coir? Money is tight so if there is another solution to keep humidity high I'd like to hear it.

if skittle is not comfortable with coco coir , you can always go for other substrate , sphagnum moss holds humidity well

 

[chaseswife]

I think putting a shower curtain over your whole enclosure would work well. You just need to work out a way to hang the lights straight down. I hadn't planned on spending a lot of money- Shrimp came with a sand box that I thought was going to work fine without any modifications. I was wrong. This is my hot glue/duct tape/wooden dowel and shower curtain creation that sits on top of the original sand box now filed with repti bark.

 

[cmacusa3]

Skittles, I think it's great that you've decided to listen to these guys. I've raised boxies for years and got my first Sulcata about 4 months ago. I thought it would be simple but it wasn't, My little guy struggled for a while until I found this site and did everything they advised me on. Today he is doing fantastic! He stays active all day, eats everything and is turning into a climber. I wish you the best of luck to you and the tort.

 

[LittleSkittle]

I'll try to mix and match all of these solutions to make it a better enclosure. I'm off to gather supplies. I'll update pictures in a few hours and see if the enclosure looks better for the tort. I also bye a hygrometer while I'm at it.

 

[AbbyLee22]

I'll try to mix and match all of these solutions to make it a better enclosure. I'm off to gather supplies. I'll update pictures in a few hours and see if the enclosure looks better for the tort. I also bye a hygrometer while I'm at it.

Good luck! Can't wait tinder what you've come up with. It is really frustrating for a newby because, like you have found, there are SO many opinions on how they should be raised. By my research this is the only site with actual proof in the humid method. I have a 5 year old Leo girl who was raised dry (luckily with daily soaks at least) and she is very small for her age and pyramided. I have new hatchlings growing in this new technique and are doing very well. I was able to set it up using a large tub. It's not pretty but it does the job!

 

[AbbyLee22]

I'll try to mix and match all of these solutions to make it a better enclosure. I'm off to gather supplies. I'll update pictures in a few hours and see if the enclosure looks better for the tort. I also bye a hygrometer while I'm at it.

Good luck! Can't wait tinder what you've come up with. It is really frustrating for a newby because, like you have found, there are SO many opinions on how they should be raised. By my research this is the only site with actual proof in the humid method. I have a 5 year old Leo girl who was raised dry (luckily with daily soaks at least) and she is very small for her age and pyramided. I have new hatchlings growing in this new technique and are doing very well. I was able to set it up using a large tub. It's not pretty but it does the job!

 

[LittleSkittle]

Alright ladies and gents. I've installed an anti-alien helmet to the enclosure and added orchid bark as fine as I could find. Potting soil has been placed under it. Skittles doesn't know how to react yet. Below are a couple of pictures. Final heat and humidity are on their way. If you have any suggestions as to ways to improve let me know. I'm on board with whatever this community has to say. And for anybody worried about the thermometer and the hygrometer they will be removed.

 

[LittleSkittle]

So the temp I have I'm the basking area is 95 degrees and in the cooler side is about 85 degrees. I can't get the humidity above 60% I've already made the substrate damp. What should I do?

 

[russian/sulcata/tortoise]

So the temp I have I'm the basking area is 95 degrees and in the cooler side is about 85 degrees. I can't get the humidity above 60% I've already made the substrate damp. What should I do?

is it a closed chamber enclosure?

 

[LittleSkittle]

is it a closed chamber enclosure?

If you look at the picture above, it's the closest I can get to a closed container.