need advise on companionship

christykindness

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As a child I inherited an eastern box that was my best friend for almost twenty five years, before he passed away. We bought a Russian female that I love to pieces about five years ago. three years ago, we were given a Sulcatta by some folks who abused and neglected her. ( She has some awful pyramiding on her shell, but is growing and active now, and seems to be responding well to good care) The two girls really hit it off! They snuggled together when they sleep they eat together, play together- and really seem to enjoy being together. We recently took in another Russian- a male who's owner just didn't have time for him any more (we own a small farm so people tend to bring us their creatures in need). I do not want to allow breeding, so I have to separate the male to a separate enclosure but is this good for him? The girls are very active, he is not. Could he be lonely? am I wrong to separate him? I know torts are social, and want to give them the best possible set up should I seek out another male companion for him? In the same light, we will eventually have to split up the girls as the sulcatta (Atlas) out grows the enclosure. If they are "herd" animals and really need other torts to be happy, I want to know now , as we are
redesigning our greenhouse, back yard, and the attached pasture to create a "tortoise land". The proper fencing is expensive, and a lot of labor- I would hate to have to redo it in a few years to accommodate growth, and disturb them again! So 1:could he just be lonely? 2:are torts happiest when in pairs or groups? 3: has anyone kept a very large tort (IE: sulcatta) with a smaller breed successfully; and how did you work out the logistics of that? 4: any suggestions on fencing or layout for a large enclosure (size is not an issue, we have 6 acres back there to play with) so we can do right by them the first time. BTW I am in Northern Nevada Thanks in advance for your advise!
 

Loritort

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Sorry, torts aren't "herd" animals. Since you have plenty of space, it would be best to keep the male separated. Nice that you're in a position to house so many animals and are willing to take in people's pets:)
 

tglazie

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How recently did you get this male? If your setup is the same as it is for the females, then he should be fine. When tortoises are first introduced to a new area, they are generally very gregarious that first day, exploring everything, looking around at every possible feature of the environment, and then they usually shut down completely, retreating to a hiding area, refusing to budge, sometimes for as long as two weeks. I once had a male Hermanns I fostered back in 2008 who had just recovered from improper care and an untreated parasite load. The second I got him into an outdoor run, he dashed about the place like a maniac, climbing some limestone boulders I'd placed in the center for enrichment, grazing on every plant that happened to be within reach, then the next day he went quiet. Ultimately, it took me the better part of two years to get him to where he was grazing and moving about the enclosure normally without any prompting from me. He had to build up muscle mass. I normally brumate my temperate species, but I kept him up given how weak he seemed. Anyway, veering. Sorry.

Bottom line, the male isn't depressed because he's lonely. The male is depressed because he is in a new place that fills him with an existential sense of dread, a feeling that he will overcome if he isn't otherwise physically compromised and if he's given all the things a tortoise needs, which I assume is knowledge you already possess after having read posts on this forum and kept these critters for so many years. If he maintains good weight (he should feel heavy, like surprisingly so; use your experience with your female russian as a guide; specific weights are difficult for those of us on the other side of the digital wall to figure) and if he's eating, he should be fine.

Now, to the guts of it, if you don't want baby tortoises, and if you don't want your female to have a very bad time, don't house them together. Me personally, I would advise against housing the Russian and the sulcata together, but that is my personal opinion, and I won't get into that here. They've lived together without incident, the sully is getting bigger so you will separate them, so as far as I'm concerned, that's a non issue. Putting the male with the female, though, unless you're looking to breed your animals and hatch the babies and sell the babies to interested parties (and all the investment that comes with that, like an incubator, winter and summer time laying facilities for the female, veterinary visits should the poor lady become egg bound or wounded by the hyper aggressive courtship rituals of the male, etc), and unless you're willing to put your female through the torturous attentions of a brutal monster of a male that she will be unable to escape lest you constantly intercede on her behalf, don't house them together. Tortoises aren't herd animals. Sometimes, group dynamics among a group of females can work, but whenever you throw a male into the mix, usually things go south very quickly, especially with Russians, and especially if you keep just a pair. Some folks have been able to get a single male and three or four females to coexist peacefully, but again, that means a lot of babies, which is a problem some would like to have until they figure out how much work it is placing all those kids. Me personally, I wouldn't have it any other way. Raising twenty or thirty baby tortoises every summer while I get them started for life as someone's pet was a dream I had since I was a small boy, and I am so glad I am fortunate enough to do this. However, it is a lot of work. Soaking thirty babies twice per day, making sure that all of them are getting fed properly and engaging in normal behavior, addressing every possible danger is a lot of work, which from what you described, isn't for you.

So yeah, let the male be lonesome. I've kept an adult male ibera Greek tortoise for over two decades. He has always lived by himself, because he is the single biggest jerk tortoise I've ever seen in my long years of breeding and caring for tortoises. He is always on patrol, always on the move, and he attacks anything that looks like a tortoise. And Graecus is doing just fine. He doesn't care that his only friend is a human. He and I aren't even very good friends, given that if I don't have a hand full of grape leaves, he treats me as another tree or tall pile of rocks. Very one sided, that relationship.

T.G.
 

Loritort

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How recently did you get this male? If your setup is the same as it is for the females, then he should be fine. When tortoises are first introduced to a new area, they are generally very gregarious that first day, exploring everything, looking around at every possible feature of the environment, and then they usually shut down completely, retreating to a hiding area, refusing to budge, sometimes for as long as two weeks. I once had a male Hermanns I fostered back in 2008 who had just recovered from improper care and an untreated parasite load. The second I got him into an outdoor run, he dashed about the place like a maniac, climbing some limestone boulders I'd placed in the center for enrichment, grazing on every plant that happened to be within reach, then the next day he went quiet. Ultimately, it took me the better part of two years to get him to where he was grazing and moving about the enclosure normally without any prompting from me. He had to build up muscle mass. I normally brumate my temperate species, but I kept him up given how weak he seemed. Anyway, veering. Sorry.

Bottom line, the male isn't depressed because he's lonely. The male is depressed because he is in a new place that fills him with an existential sense of dread, a feeling that he will overcome if he isn't otherwise physically compromised and if he's given all the things a tortoise needs, which I assume is knowledge you already possess after having read posts on this forum and kept these critters for so many years. If he maintains good weight (he should feel heavy, like surprisingly so; use your experience with your female russian as a guide; specific weights are difficult for those of us on the other side of the digital wall to figure) and if he's eating, he should be fine.

Now, to the guts of it, if you don't want baby tortoises, and if you don't want your female to have a very bad time, don't house them together. Me personally, I would advise against housing the Russian and the sulcata together, but that is my personal opinion, and I won't get into that here. They've lived together without incident, the sully is getting bigger so you will separate them, so as far as I'm concerned, that's a non issue. Putting the male with the female, though, unless you're looking to breed your animals and hatch the babies and sell the babies to interested parties (and all the investment that comes with that, like an incubator, winter and summer time laying facilities for the female, veterinary visits should the poor lady become egg bound or wounded by the hyper aggressive courtship rituals of the male, etc), and unless you're willing to put your female through the torturous attentions of a brutal monster of a male that she will be unable to escape lest you constantly intercede on her behalf, don't house them together. Tortoises aren't herd animals. Sometimes, group dynamics among a group of females can work, but whenever you throw a male into the mix, usually things go south very quickly, especially with Russians, and especially if you keep just a pair. Some folks have been able to get a single male and three or four females to coexist peacefully, but again, that means a lot of babies, which is a problem some would like to have until they figure out how much work it is placing all those kids. Me personally, I wouldn't have it any other way. Raising twenty or thirty baby tortoises every summer while I get them started for life as someone's pet was a dream I had since I was a small boy, and I am so glad I am fortunate enough to do this. However, it is a lot of work. Soaking thirty babies twice per day, making sure that all of them are getting fed properly and engaging in normal behavior, addressing every possible danger is a lot of work, which from what you described, isn't for you.

So yeah, let the male be lonesome. I've kept an adult male ibera Greek tortoise for over two decades. He has always lived by himself, because he is the single biggest jerk tortoise I've ever seen in my long years of breeding and caring for tortoises. He is always on patrol, always on the move, and he attacks anything that looks like a tortoise. And Graecus is doing just fine. He doesn't care that his only friend is a human. He and I aren't even very good friends, given that if I don't have a hand full of grape leaves, he treats me as another tree or tall pile of rocks. Very one sided, that relationship.

T.G.

Pretty much says it all!!!
 

Tom

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Hello and welcome to the forum.

T.G. summed it all up very well.

I'd add that tortoises are not social. They are solitary animals, and they do not see other tortoises as friends. They see them as competitors for precious resources or worse. Their instinct is to drive them out of the territory, or in the case of males, to forcibly breed any females they encounter.

Tortoises don't play. Snuggling, following each other around, sleeping face to face to face or side to side, sitting on the food, etc… are all signs of one tortoise trying to tell the other to get out. Tortoises should never be kept in pairs. As T.G. pointed out, groups can sometimes work, but even that fails sometimes. Russians and sulcatas are two of the worst species for this too.

Further, different tortoise species from different parts of the world carry pathogens and parasites that other tortoises from other parts of the world cannot defend against. Species should never be mixed. Many entire collections have been wiped out this way.

Here is more on all of that:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Sounds to me like you need three separate enclosures.
 

Loritort

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Tom, you've obviously been doing this for awhile. I agree with everything you wrote. When I had two, they seemed to be buddies until the older one started nipping at the younger one and trying to "hook up" with him regularly. I quickly learned that I'd made a terrible mistake. Thanks for posting.
 

the Turtle Shepherd

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sorry, not to disagree with anyone, some of my torts are totally ok with others and others do not seem to care, i believe it depends on the personality, i am all for companionship, i saw animals, especially abused and neglected ones to benefit from contact tremendously:) i would keep your russians together, your breeding chances are not that bad of a thing:)
 

christykindness

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Thank you everyone for the opinions and info, That is just what I needed to hear. Tucker (the male) has only been with us for three weeks. We decided to immediately dig another outdoor enclosure for him, allowing the girls to stay together in theirs for the season. Then we built three enclosures in my greenhouse and changed the roof panels to allow more/better quality sunlight. I planted the heck out of those enclosures, and today tried Tuck and Dalas (female Russian) in theirs. (Our sully was in her burrow at the time, we'll show her the new digs soon enough, she has a very set routine I don't want to mess with). The other two explored like crazy, climbed, soaked and grazed to their hearts content, I think I did well there. In the spring, we are expecting Atlas (the sully) to have grown a bit more and be ready to move out of the "dug-outs" so we will be closing off the yard with a very aggressive fence as she does love to dig and test her boundaries! We will be adding a back gate to that fence so we can have access to the back six acres, and start fencing and digging some enclosures back there so we can rotate these guys for grazing, repairs etc. or if anymore wayward tortoises need a home we have space ready for them. I hated being caught off guard with Tucker, and putting him in the "transitional housing"!
 

Tom

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sorry, not to disagree with anyone, some of my torts are totally ok with others and others do not seem to care, i believe it depends on the personality, i am all for companionship, i saw animals, especially abused and neglected ones to benefit from contact tremendously:) i would keep your russians together, your breeding chances are not that bad of a thing:)

Because you have had tortoises that didn't full-on attack each other, does not mean that its a good idea to keep two russians as a pair or mix species.

Your advice, if followed, is likely to do great bodily harm to one or both of her russians. That is not what we do here.
 

wellington

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sorry, not to disagree with anyone, some of my torts are totally ok with others and others do not seem to care, i believe it depends on the personality, i am all for companionship, i saw animals, especially abused and neglected ones to benefit from contact tremendously:) i would keep your russians together, your breeding chances are not that bad of a thing:)
Unfortunately you will some day learn the hard way. Many years of experience here that has seen a lot and best to learn from their experience then to learn the hard way. A pair of Russians is asking for trouble. Mixing species is asking for trouble. When the experience of others is not taken seriously, it's the tortoises that pays the price of the owner not wanting to learn.
 

Alaskamike

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I think we tend to personify our pets-; ascribing human feeling / emotions / behavior to our animals. It's only natural since humans are social animals to think our tortoises get lonely. We would.

Some time back there was a Utube video showing what the filmer thought was helpful behavior one Sulcata to another. One Sulcata was on his back - another approached him and kept pushing on him till he flipped back over. The comments were " Isn't that sweet , how that one helped his friend out ".

No. That was further aggression , liklely the very aggression that flipped him to begin with.

There is danger in our errors in this way. Tom has pointed out well that the behaviors we might interpret as signs of compatibility are more often intimidation
- sleeping in same spot
- following each other around
- putting noses together ( they are NOT kissing )
- going after the same piece of food ( it's NOT sharing )
- one pushing partially atop the other in a hide ( they are NOT snuggling).

Just because we don't see biting or ramming , these still are often there.

Stress releases a cortisone into a torts system. Just as it does most creatures. Prolonged flooding of cortisone weakens the immune system. Even if they do no visable damage to each other , it makes them susceptible to disease , parasitic Bloom , and poor appetite.

Even in groups , where the torts seem to give up much of their infighting ( it's almost as if they accept there's no point - can't run them all off ). There is usually a dominant animal that rules.

What makes animal behavior unique to each species cannot safely be discounted.
 
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