Need help my little leo getting soft..

[Mmsmoelf]

I have 5 Leo's all under a year old...
Then we hit winter and one of them had a mild RI infection ( all housed inside) They all got Ronaxan for 12 days.. around 2 months back all was off meds and doing fine..

Then my smallest one startet to lose weight and getting softer underside.. went to the vet.. it got a vitamine shot and its still eating and go basking most of the day.. it got back to just being baby soft.
well didnt take long tho now its back and even worse..
i have put it on some spicial calcium power from the vet that should help+ plus Nekton-MSA with D3
It get 1/4 of a cumcumber with a little bit on from both every 2nd day..
But just seems to get worse and worse now to the point where im thinking its a shame to keep trying..

Any suggestions what i can do

 

[Jodie]

I would like to be able to give you good news, but have a bunch of questions instead. Sorry.
Where did you get the babieis, how were they started? Hot and dry or humid environment? How old are they, and how much do they weigh?
How are you housing them? Together separate? Size? What are your temps, cool side, basking, warm side, and night low? What is your humidity?
How are the other 4 doing\growing?
There is a thread about hatchling failure syndrome. I will try to find it for you.

 

[Jodie]

found it.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/#post-215031

 

[Martin Martinussen]

I would like to be able to give you good news, but have a bunch of questions instead. Sorry.
Where did you get the babieis, how were they started? Hot and dry or humid environment? How old are they, and how much do they weigh?
How are you housing them? Together separate? Size? What are your temps, cool side, basking, warm side, and night low? What is your humidity?
How are the other 4 doing\growing?
There is a thread about hatchling failure syndrome. I will try to find it for you.

The setup is spot on..
30-35c basking, 26c at night, 60-80% humiditiy even more if they dig down alittle.. only the top soil that is dry.
Diet grass, dalendions and plantain and what ever leaves I can find, cut up in small pieces and mixed togeather.. put in alittle collard or green kale due to the high amount of calcium.. They don't eat anything not fresh..

2 of them from Spain, and 3 from Germany.
All from some of the best breeders there is in Euro.
They all live together. 240cm x160cm
Little sick one got it last it's 5-6 months old. Other 4 is from spring..
Normally I had 2... then got the sick one to have 3.. then a x needed to move so took over her 2 babies.. why I ended up with 5. [emoji4]

The 4 healthy weight is from 45-55g putting on alittle every time they are on a scale.
The biggest one just put on 10% in 20 days from 50 to 55g.

And the sick one have lost weight and under 30g now
Was at 40g or 38g

But easy to see it's trying to get the body working.. it at the basking spot most of the day.. Just go eat in the morning and back to basking.. and at midday I give it the 1/4 slice of cucumber with calcium and it eat it no problem...

 

[Jodie]

I find no major flaws in yur setup or diet. That baby is failing to thrive unfortunately, and I would bet it suffered from dehydration in the first days/weeks even hours of life. As long as he continues to eat on his own, there is hope. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[teresaf]

I wouldn't let it get below 29 degrees in the deepest darkest area of your enclosure. Especially since you have a sick one and the others have been sick having it a little warmer is better for them. My personal opinion is while they're so small and still sick I would lower the humidity a little. Make sure you bathe them daily in warm shallow water. inside their enclosure is best so they stay warm.

 

[Mmsmoelf]

I wouldn't let it get below 29 degrees in the deepest darkest area of your enclosure. Especially since you have a sick one and the others have been sick having it a little warmer is better for them. My personal opinion is while they're so small and still sick I would lower the humidity a little. Make sure you bathe them daily in warm shallow water. inside their enclosure is best so they stay warm.

2 months ago they was on Ronaxan and no clicking sound or anything now.. They have 28-30c night and day at the other end then the basking spot ( moved the sensor alittle the basking spot area gets alittle cooler at night.. They normaly sleep under there treelog in the hay near the CHE..
Just move the sick one from the basking spot to the heated arear if is sleeping there tehne lights out
they 4 others i dont move around..

 

[Mmsmoelf]

I find no major flaws in yur setup or diet. That baby is failing to thrive unfortunately, and I would bet it suffered from dehydration in the first days/weeks even hours of life. As long as he continues to eat on his own, there is hope. I wish you the best of luck.

What i was thinking... I will see if it get to soft and it goes to the vet for the last time..

 

[Greg T]

I have seen great response to this by simply getting them out in direct sunlight as much as possible each day. Real sunlight is needed for proper calcium interchange in the body. Combine this with the diet you have and I would expect improvement unless there is a more serious issue going on.

 

[Tom]

They don't get sick for no reason. They get sick when the environment is "off' in some way or other, usually temps. The RI hit at the onset of winter which tells me that temp are/were dropping too low.

Vitamin injections are a sign of a vet that doesn't know tortoises. Giving antibiotics to a little hatchling that is already struggling due to cold temps or a dry start in life is almost always fatal. Their little bodies can't handle it.

Then you mentioned "sleeping in the tree log near the hay". This tells me you don't have a humid hide, and if you are using hay, you've both gotten some bad advice and your enclosure is much too dry.

Here is the correct care info. If want want these babies to survive, recover and thrive, I think you need to get a large closed chamber and get them into the correct living conditions and temperatures.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

 

[Tom]

The setup is spot on..
30-35c basking, 26c at night, 60-80% humiditiy even more if they dig down alittle.. only the top soil that is dry.
Diet grass, dalendions and plantain and what ever leaves I can find, cut up in small pieces and mixed togeather.. put in alittle collard or green kale due to the high amount of calcium.. They don't eat anything not fresh..

2 of them from Spain, and 3 from Germany.
All from some of the best breeders there is in Euro.
They all live together. 240cm x160cm
Little sick one got it last it's 5-6 months old. Other 4 is from spring..
Normally I had 2... then got the sick one to have 3.. then a x needed to move so took over her 2 babies.. why I ended up with 5. [emoji4]

The 4 healthy weight is from 45-55g putting on alittle every time they are on a scale.
The biggest one just put on 10% in 20 days from 50 to 55g.

And the sick one have lost weight and under 30g now
Was at 40g or 38g

But easy to see it's trying to get the body working.. it at the basking spot most of the day.. Just go eat in the morning and back to basking.. and at midday I give it the 1/4 slice of cucumber with calcium and it eat it no problem...

Why are you answering questions about Mmsmoelf's set up? Do you guys know each other?

The set up is not spot on for a bunch of baby leopards. basking area should be 36-37, not 30-35. Night temp of 26 is okay for when they are a little larger and healthy, but for little one that are sick no part of the enclosure should ever drop below 30-31 for at least two weeks after symptoms disappear. And if this is an open topped enclosure, he might be getting a reading of 26 at the thermometer, but I'l bet its cooler than that away from the thermometer.

As far as these best being from the best breeders in Europe, that tells us nothing about how these babies are started. Some of the most well known, reputable, "best" breeders over here start their babies all wrong and I'm constantly answering their customer's questions about why their baby is going soft, not growing, dying or dead. Few people over here start babies correctly and form what I've seen over there, it is no different.

 

[Mmsmoelf]

Why are you answering questions about Mmsmoelf's set up? Do you guys know each other?

The set up is not spot on for a bunch of baby leopards. basking area should be 36-37, not 30-35. Night temp of 26 is okay for when they are a little larger and healthy, but for little one that are sick no part of the enclosure should ever drop below 30-31 for at least two weeks after symptoms disappear. And if this is an open topped enclosure, he might be getting a reading of 26 at the thermometer, but I'l bet its cooler than that away from the thermometer.

As far as these best being from the best breeders in Europe, that tells us nothing about how these babies are started. Some of the most well known, reputable, "best" breeders over here start their babies all wrong and I'm constantly answering their customer's questions about why their baby is going soft, not growing, dying or dead. Few people over here start babies correctly and form what I've seen over there, it is no different.

Hehe yeah same guy Just log in from my phone on the first post... Buy im the same guy

Pic 3: 2nd palled is undergoing refit with new plants and lights.. for the next week or so..
its is closed.. well half of it is.. with a bridge thingy from one to another.. Its right in the center the temp is 35c one the stones/dirt and when moving out it gets down to 30c( so when you add there shell its 35-38c ) its a HID so more heat right at the center..

Pic 1/2
And the hole thing is humid except the big cornor with the log/hay.. where they go sleep 9/10 days all of them... and its dry..
don't water that part at all and its covered by the CHE also and where the Sensor is for it...
And i haven't been watering it today, and you can see not even the topsoil is dry yet. and its only here at 17.00 they go into the Hay/Log place... In the day hours they hide under the other logs or by the plants...
The little sick one is still on the rocks.. light just turned off

At the vet It was just vitamines it got.. i got pills with me home for the IR...

about the breeders i'm not worried about them not been doing it the right way tbh.. Both of them have insane setup and breeding some of the very rare animals, so they know what they are doing..

 

[Mmsmoelf]

I have seen great response to this by simply getting them out in direct sunlight as much as possible each day. Real sunlight is needed for proper calcium interchange in the body. Combine this with the diet you have and I would expect improvement unless there is a more serious issue going on.

Wish i could its winter here and around 0c outside.,. or i had rolled them all out into the sun..

 

[Tom]

about the breeders i'm not worried about them not been doing it the right way tbh.. Both of them have insane setup and breeding some of the very rare animals, so they know what they are doing..

Again, it doesn't matter what rare species they breed or how insane their set ups are. What matters is frequent soaks, preferably daily, and warm humid conditions. Most breeders for this species, especially the ones with decades of experience, still think these tortoises need dry, desert conditions and cool nights like a temperate species, and it kills a large percentage of their babies. But it doesn't kill the babies immediately while they are still in the care of the breeder. The dry conditions damage the kidneys and it takes weeks or months for them to die. The babies seem healthy and normal. Active and eating. Everything seems great for weeks, but they don't grow a lot, the plastron starts to seem like its getting softer, eventually the appetite and activity lessens, some hide in a cold dark corner and some sit under the basking light all day. Many people go to the vet and get a "vitamin injection". The stress of transport and the vitamin injection is often more than they can handle and it can contribute to them dying even sooner. Eventually most of these die.

The other thing that gets them is temps that are too cool. This usually causes respiratory infections and little babies have a tough time coming back from that.

I've been through this with many people over many years. Frequently when their baby dies, they decided to get another one. But this time, knowing all that they've learned here on the forum, they buy from the right person who started the babies with warmth and hydration, and they are astounded at the difference. When it is done right, the babies thrive. The difference is very noticeable.

 

[teresaf]

@Tom is right the difference is huge! My niece just got a tortoise from tortoise town about 7 months ago...would not grow even a gram in months... eventually died. She just bought three from someone here on this forum the same age and they're growing weekly... They're almost double their weight from when she got them last month. Crazy difference...

 

[Martin Martinussen]

This is how they go to sleep at night.. well at 15.00.. [emoji16]
They all have there own little way into the hay corner.
And only place I don't water.. from there drinking water and over to the corner is dry.. rest is wet and high humidity..
Have 4 temp/humidity gauges plus the one controlling the CHE where they sleep..
In Denmark the humidity is 45% inside a house.
So it's not that stuff to keep it high..