New Mom to Sonoran Desert Tortoise Hatchling Needs Help!

[Robin!]

I'm the lucky new mom to a 2 month old (approx) Sonoran Desert Tortoise located in Phoenix, AZ. I rescued him (my gut tells me it's a him!) from an undesirable situation and I didn't receive any care instructions. In fact, he was in a shoe box with a small piece of iceberg lettuce - which I now know is bad news.
I LOVE my little Shimmy...But, I am reading conflicting information on the internet in regards to his diet and hibernation tactics, therefore I'm concerned.
Currently he is in a large plastic sweater bin, shallow enough to fit under your bed but tall enough so he can't climb out. The substrate is a mix of pea gravel and golf-course sand. He has a little hallowed out coconut shell that he retreats to when he's not grazing around the box.
QUESTION: When he burrows, is he suppose to be completely covered? He doesn't have the power to shovel enough of the sand so he can hide, so he lays on top, buried as much as the sand will allow.

QUESTION: I'm reading conflicting reports on diet! Shimmy LOVES green beans, leafy spinach, bok choy, cilantro... Are they vegetarians or herbivores? I have desert landscaping -- there's only ONE type of weed I can get him to eat - is that enough? I've also read that supplements are harmful - is that true? I bought a dried supplement that contains majority of the grass/weeds that he needs - should I put that on the veggies?

QUESTION: Will he tell me if he wants to hibernate this first year? Do I have to hibernate him his first year? If so, PLEASE give me consistent advice on how to do so. I live in a house with a garage, my back yard is desert but I have 2 dogs. I can easily block access if need be, but what if it gets too cold during the winter?

QUESTION: What does normal hatchling poop look like? Again, I'm super-paranoid and want to ensure my baby is healthy as can be! He normally produces 1 - 2 pieces of poo each day. Sorry to be gross, but should it be totally solid, or a bit soft? Can you tell if they're sick by their poop (like you can with dogs?)

Thank you for any and all help you can give me! Shimmy and I appreciate it!

 

[russian/sulcata/tortoise]

welcome to the forum you will love it here! i have no experience with desert torts but there are many people on this forum that own them. also its not gross asking question about your torts poops, thats just part of caring for a tort!

 

[wellington]

Hello,and Welcome. I can't help you much except for a couple things. First, do not hibernate. him, you need to have him for a year to know if he is healthy enough to survive a hibernation. Second, get rid of the sand and pea gravel. Sand causes impaction and if he were to swallow one of those tiny stones, well, that could also cause impaction. I would give him a warm water soak every day for 20-30 minutes and be sure to use a good uvb bulb, not the coil type, they have been known to cause eye problems. One item for a diet is never good. As big a variety as possible is best, however others can help you better on that then I can. Good luck.

 

[Gillian M]

Welcome to this wonderful forum! I'm sorry I can't help as I need help with my tort. Good luck!

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Robin, and welcome to the Forum!

You need to upgrade your shoe box. A shoe box simply isn't big enough to accommodate all the "furniture" you need to put in. Buy a plastic tote and put about 4" of either cypress mulch, orchid bark or coco coir in the bottom. Pour water over it and mix it up with your hand so you end up with a moist-clear-through substrate - not soaking wet, but moist. Then bury some plants, either real or artificial. Sink a shallow plant saucer into the substrate. Place a tile or piece of broken cement to use as a feeding station, and put a couple of different hiding places in the new enclosure.

Buy two clamp light fixtures from a home improvement store. You want the kind with a ceramic base, not the plastic (Bakelite) base. Then buy a Mercury Vapor Bulb (I get mine off Amazon) and a ceramic heat emitter (CHE) to use at night.

Baby tortoises need to be kept warm...especially since he's on moist substrate. Don't allow his little enclosure to get below 80F degrees. You might want to keep the lid to the plastic tote, cut out holes for the light fixtures and keep the lid on the tote to help keep the warm air inside.

There's a very knowledgeable desert tortoise person in Bakersfield, CA - his last name always escapes me, but his first name is Don. You can find a very good care sheet for desert tortoises at http://www.donsdeserttortoises.com/1.html

May we please see pictures of your new baby?

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. I house baby DTs the same as russians. They have similar diet and housing requirements.
Check these out:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

The vast majority of DT babies that die, die from chronic dehydration issues. Soak that baby daily. Give it a humid hide and damp substrate, and keep it warm.

 

[tortdad]

Welcome


0.0.1 Redfoot (Spike)
0.0.1 Cherryhead Redfoot (Bruce Wayne)
1.0 Sulcata (Hal Jordan)

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Hello Robin welcome to the TFO from AZ have a great tort day !



Sent from my iPhone using TortForum

 

[Ciri]

The Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum has excellent info compiled by reptile specialist veterinarians who care for the museums desert tortoises and other reptiles:

http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/documents/NativePlantsforDesertTortoises_2008.pdf

also good:

http://www.sdturtle.org/public_documents/sdtts_goodandbadgardenplants.pdf#!care-sheets/c217k

Not hibernating that your little hatchling for the first winter is a good idea. Looking for spurge and spiderling weeds, if you have them in your yard, would be good nutrition for your little one. It's essential to keep the dogs away from the tortoise hatchling as naturally the dogs will see the tortoise as food.

Good luck with your desert tortoise. Feel free to ask if you have any more questions.

 

[Robin!]

Hello,and Welcome. I can't help you much except for a couple things. First, do not hibernate. him, you need to have him for a year to know if he is healthy enough to survive a hibernation. Second, get rid of the sand and pea gravel. Sand causes impaction and if he were to swallow one of those tiny stones, well, that could also cause impaction. I would give him a warm water soak every day for 20-30 minutes and be sure to use a good uvb bulb, not the coil type, they have been known to cause eye problems. One item for a diet is never good. As big a variety as possible is best, however others can help you better on that then I can. Good luck.

Thank you for the info. Until I can get the soil substrate, I put his food in a separate dish away from where the sand is to avoid the intake of sand. I'm headed to the nursery today to add more plants/flowers to his diet. I found a small hibiscus-type of flower that he enjoys too. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. Have a great day!

 

[Robin!]

Hi Robin, and welcome to the Forum!

You need to upgrade your shoe box. A shoe box simply isn't big enough to accommodate all the "furniture" you need to put in. Buy a plastic tote and put about 4" of either cypress mulch, orchid bark or coco coir in the bottom. Pour water over it and mix it up with your hand so you end up with a moist-clear-through substrate - not soaking wet, but moist. Then bury some plants, either real or artificial. Sink a shallow plant saucer into the substrate. Place a tile or piece of broken cement to use as a feeding station, and put a couple of different hiding places in the new enclosure.

Buy two clamp light fixtures from a home improvement store. You want the kind with a ceramic base, not the plastic (Bakelite) base. Then buy a Mercury Vapor Bulb (I get mine off Amazon) and a ceramic heat emitter (CHE) to use at night.

Baby tortoises need to be kept warm...especially since he's on moist substrate. Don't allow his little enclosure to get below 80F degrees. You might want to keep the lid to the plastic tote, cut out holes for the light fixtures and keep the lid on the tote to help keep the warm air inside.

There's a very knowledgeable desert tortoise person in Bakersfield, CA - his last name always escapes me, but his first name is Don. You can find a very good care sheet for desert tortoises at http://www.donsdeserttortoises.com/1.html

May we please see pictures of your new baby?

Hi there - thanks for taking the time to respond. I think you mis-read my statement, when I got him he was in a shoe box. I quickly upgraded to a large plastic sweater box. I'll head to the nursery today to get the materials for the substrate. Like I said, I've read so much conflicting info on the internet - so I appreciate the info. What's up with planting artificial plants? I was just laid off from my job, unexpectedly (I just bought a house!) - so I really have to be cost-conscience. I'd rather buy plants that he'll eat. I did use bermuda grass as a substrate at first, he didn't touch it (as far as eating it). I don't have grass in my yard (I was told I didn't need to) so I was getting it from my neighbors yard (no pesticides). I also bring home various plants/flowers from my nightly walks (hibiscus, mallow, etc). Don's website is very helpful, thank you for sharing.

Lighting - once again, I guess I was misinformed because I have the UVB light with the coils. 120V / 60 HZ. Is this acceptable for now? I also have a heat lamp (bought at a reptile store) but I'm in Phoenix so I only use it night when I turn the air down low. There is a temperature / humidity gauge as well. I've attached a photo for reference.

I gave him a good soak this morning. Attached is a photo collage: top is the day I got him, and bottom was taken today (that's organic Kale, Spinach & bok choy with white calcium flakes sprinkled on top).

He has CERTAINLY grown a lot during these last couple of months. Also attached is the lighting configuration.

 

[wellington]

The coil bulb needs to be replaced, they have been known to cause eye problems. Also the lights need to hang straight down.

 

[Tom]

The Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum has excellent info compiled by reptile specialist veterinarians who care for the museums desert tortoises and other reptiles:

http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/documents/NativePlantsforDesertTortoises_2008.pdf

also good:

http://www.sdturtle.org/public_documents/sdtts_goodandbadgardenplants.pdf#!care-sheets/c217k

Not hibernating that your little hatchling for the first winter is a good idea. Looking for spurge and spiderling weeds, if you have them in your yard, would be good nutrition for your little one. It's essential to keep the dogs away from the tortoise hatchling as naturally the dogs will see the tortoise as food.

Good luck with your desert tortoise. Feel free to ask if you have any more questions.

Those care sheets are a mix of good and bad info. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone unless you intend to point out all the bad advice offered in them and highlight the good. The plant stuff seems pretty good though.

The first care sheet says to give adult water only once or twice a week. That is not good advice. It also says to keep hatchlings in shoe box with coarse gravel at a single warm, but not warm enough temp. They will quickly die that way. I'll bet the author of that sheet has seen a lot of babies die and will tell some story about some of them just aren't meant to make it. Know how many of the ones I start my way survive? All of them.

 

[Tom]

Lighting - once again, I guess I was misinformed because I have the UVB light with the coils. 120V / 60 HZ. Is this acceptable for now? I also have a heat lamp (bought at a reptile store) but I'm in Phoenix so I only use it night when I turn the air down low.

No. Neither of these things is acceptable. The coil bulbs can damage their eyes. Its not okay ever.

The tortoise needs a warm basking spot of around 95-100, and a cooler side to get away from the heat all day long, every day. This is how they maintain the correct body temperature. They move in and out of the heat all day, the same way they'd move in and out of the sun in the wild. Cooler at night is fine.

The best way to house them, for optimal health and survival is in the link I posted for you above. It explains all the heating and lighting stuff. When considering which advice to follow, ask them what percentage of the babies started their way survive. If its less than 100%, then please re-read and follow the stuff I posted for you. Certainly there is more than one way to do it, but all of the tortoise club and government websites I've seen are a recipe for disaster when it comes to hatchlings.

 

[Ciri]

For hatchlings the care sheets I gave you links for don't address how often to soak the baby tortoise. A constant source of clean water in a very shallow dish is very important. I find hatchlings are in and out of the water all day. The water needs to be shallow enough that the hatchling can easily breathe while sitting in the water. (About a quarter of an inch or less is usually enough.)

While there may be differences of opinion about how warm the warm end of the plastic bin or terrarium should be, it is important that they don't get overheated. Over 95° for too long can cause brain damage. I have usually made the warm area 85 to 90°. This is worked quite well.

 

[Robin!]

The coil bulb needs to be replaced, they have been known to cause eye problems. Also the lights need to hang straight down.

Thanks. I pointed them up for the camera shot...normally they are down.

 

[Robin!]

Those care sheets are a mix of good and bad info. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone unless you intend to point out all the bad advice offered in them and highlight the good. The plant stuff seems pretty good though.

The first care sheet says to give adult water only once or twice a week. That is not good advice. It also says to keep hatchlings in shoe box with coarse gravel at a single warm, but not warm enough temp. They will quickly die that way. I'll bet the author of that sheet has seen a lot of babies die and will tell some story about some of them just aren't meant to make it. Know how many of the ones I start my way survive? All of them.

Thank you. It's been a bit frustrating because as you can see, there is so much mis-information out there. I'm glad I joined this forum so I can get accurate information. He does have a shallow dish for the waterings, but I haven't been forcing the soakings on him. I do notice that he's done it himself. But I will make sure he is soaked every day! Today he only stayed in the water long for about 5 minutes. I didn't want to force him to stay...or am I suppose to?

 

[Tom]

Thank you. It's been a bit frustrating because as you can see, there is so much mis-information out there. I'm glad I joined this forum so I can get accurate information. He does have a shallow dish for the waterings, but I haven't been forcing the soakings on him. I do notice that he's done it himself. But I will make sure he is soaked every day! Today he only stayed in the water long for about 5 minutes. I didn't want to force him to stay...or am I suppose to?

Soaking the baby means you put him in a shallow, tall sided, opaque tub of water. The water should be warm, but not hot. It only needs to come about halfway up the shell. Its good to do this every day for at least a couple of months and then you can start occasionally skipping days after that. You should do this in a warm area, so it doesn't cool too quickly, and you should be ready to change the water as many times as he soils it. I prefer to let them soak for 20-30 minutes a day, and I prefer to do it after the days sunning session.

 

[Tom]

While there may be differences of opinion about how warm the warm end of the plastic bin or terrarium should be, it is important that they don't get overheated. Over 95° for too long can cause brain damage. I have usually made the warm area 85 to 90°. This is worked quite well.

Ciri, lets talk about this statement. This contradicts what I've seen in 100s of my own tortoises of all ages, including hatchlings. It also contradicts what several vets that I know who actually keep tortoises have seen. Quite the contrary to what you said, I find most of my tortoises like to keep their core temp nearly the same as ours. We do it ourselves with internal mechanisms, while they need to move in and out of the sun (or heated area) to do it. I've seen this stated in reptile textbooks too. I frequently take the carapace temps of my sunning tortoises at different times of the year and its often over 100. Of course this is surface temp and I'm sure they got their carapace that warm while trying to warm up the core, but many tortoises live outside in areas where daily highs top 100 and they don't suffer brain damage. When its over 100 for an outside tortoise, their core temp is over 100. If they have misters or a pool, they might be cooler, but most of them just go sit in the shade. Even in the shade, an ectotherm is going to reach the same temp as the ambient air which might exceed 110 for some areas.

The recommendation for a 100 degree basking area is accompanied by a recommendation that the other side of the enclosure should be cooler. This will allow the tortoise to keep its core temperature where ever it wants it between the 100 degree basking spot and the 75 degree cooler side. No one is recommending the entire enclosure be kept at 95+ degrees.

So that I may learn from you, how many hatchling DTs have you raised with a 85-90 degree basking area? Did they also have an outdoor sunning area where they could warm up in the sun for at least some of that time, or were they raised strictly indoors? Did all of them survive? Grow well? I ask because that seems a little too low to me, and I want to know how well they did for you with that temp range. Did you find they sat under the bulb most of the day?

 

[Robin!]

Now I am really concerned because it sounds like I'm not doing anything right, and I'm kind of freaking out. Since the info I've been following prior to joining the forum has taken me down the wrong path - may I ask your opinion on how to accurately identify if my baby is sick? I've been conducting research via the Internet, but the information is quite general.

Would you mind telling me what a healthy hatchling's droppings should look like? Anything else that I need to be aware of while I make the transition to the specifications that y'all have provided above?