New Mom to Sonoran Desert Tortoise Hatchling Needs Help!

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Lack of appetite, lethargy, eyes that don't want to open or are swollen, are all bad signs. Not coming out to eat or bask, is all bad news. Noises while breathing or excessive "yawning" can be bad signs too.

The poops should be little brownish or greenish tootsie rolls, but this will have a lot to do with diet too.
 

Robin!

New Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Messages
21
Location (City and/or State)
Phoenix, AZ
Lack of appetite, lethargy, eyes that don't want to open or are swollen, are all bad signs. Not coming out to eat or bask, is all bad news. Noises while breathing or excessive "yawning" can be bad signs too.

The poops should be little brownish or greenish tootsie rolls, but this will have a lot to do with diet too.


Many thanks, Tom. Definitely no lack of appetite, yawning only when he wakes, very active, loves to bask and his poops fit your description - thankfully. Lots of really useful info in this forum.
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2013
Messages
10,878
Why don't you send us a pict of the tort in his enclosure . So we can see and help from there . It's hard to help without a pict .


Sent from my iPhone using TortForum
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
There is so much tortoise misinformation out in the world. I used to spread the wrong info too before I learned better. I don't know how a new person is supposed to figure out who to listen to. Some people make a very convincing argument. It is based on a lot of theories and assumptions that just don't hold up in the real world in our enclosures. There are many organizations that advise on how to care for DTs. At their shows they will have a booth showing all the bladder and kidney stones that have been removed from the DTs housed and cared for the way they say to care for them. You never see one of those stones come out of a well hydrated tortoise.

I could just go on and on...

I wish you the best of luck, and please don't hesitate to ask lots of questions and really grill us on any of our assertions. I don't want you to just take my word for it. Take me to task and make me prove it to you. Make me show you why I think what I think about what is best, or worst, for our tortoises.
 

Robin!

New Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Messages
21
Location (City and/or State)
Phoenix, AZ
Why don't you send us a pict of the tort in his enclosure . So we can see and help from there . It's hard to help without a pict .


Sent from my iPhone using TortForum


...I'm afraid my amateurism is going to be judged, but you're probably right. I already know his substrate is wrong :(
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2013
Messages
10,878
See all we want to do is help we all started out many years ago ( I started 15 years ago ) we are not here to judge just help the tort ! Here is my box turtle about to be eaten by two spiders ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1414124484.953026.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using TortForum
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
...I'm afraid my amateurism is going to be judged, but you're probably right. I already know his substrate is wrong :(

Oh good heavens. You will get all sorts of comments. That is true. But all of it is coming from good intentions and wanting to help you and your tortoise. We are mostly good people here, and attacks or insults are not allowed or tolerated, even by the membership and certainly not by the moderator staff. Post your pic and get ready for some supportive constructive criticism and you might even get some compliments too.
 

Ciri

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
320
Location (City and/or State)
Tucson
Ciri, lets talk about this statement. This contradicts what I've seen in 100s of my own tortoises of all ages, including hatchlings. It also contradicts what several vets that I know who actually keep tortoises have seen. Quite the contrary to what you said, I find most of my tortoises like to keep their core temp nearly the same as ours. We do it ourselves with internal mechanisms, while they need to move in and out of the sun (or heated area) to do it. I've seen this stated in reptile textbooks too. I frequently take the carapace temps of my sunning tortoises at different times of the year and its often over 100. Of course this is surface temp and I'm sure they got their carapace that warm while trying to warm up the core, but many tortoises live outside in areas where daily highs top 100 and they don't suffer brain damage. When its over 100 for an outside tortoise, their core temp is over 100. If they have misters or a pool, they might be cooler, but most of them just go sit in the shade. Even in the shade, an ectotherm is going to reach the same temp as the ambient air which might exceed 110 for some areas.

The recommendation for a 100 degree basking area is accompanied by a recommendation that the other side of the enclosure should be cooler. This will allow the tortoise to keep its core temperature where ever it wants it between the 100 degree basking spot and the 75 degree cooler side. No one is recommending the entire enclosure be kept at 95+ degrees.

So that I may learn from you, how many hatchling DTs have you raised with a 85-90 degree basking area? Did they also have an outdoor sunning area where they could warm up in the sun for at least some of that time, or were they raised strictly indoors? Did all of them survive? Grow well? I ask because that seems a little too low to me, and I want to know how well they did for you with that temp range. Did you find they sat under the bulb most of the day?

I have cared for a few DT hatchlings in this way. All got outdoor time as well, as much as possible, as keeping them indoors is only as a last resort when it's too cold. The best UVA/UVB lights cannot make up for not getting direct sunlight needed for them to absorb the calcium in their diet. And yes, all are alive and well! I have done this under the direction of a world-renowned reptile veterinarian, Dr. James Jarchow. He is co-author of the first care sheet in my list of links I posted for Robin:

http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/documents/NativePlantsforDesertTortoises_2008.pdf

also good:

http://www.sdturtle.org/public_documents/sdtts_goodandbadgardenplants.pdf#!care-sheets/c217k

Dr Jarchow is a 1971 graduate of The Ohio State University School of Veterinary Medicine. In 1972 he moved to Tucson, closer to the native desert reptile species in which he is interested. Dr Jarchow is a consulting veterinarian for the Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum and Reid Park Zoo. He is also an Adjunct Associate Professor in the Veterinary Science Department of the University of Arizona, participating in research projects focusing on reptiles and amphibians. Dr. Jarchow has served on the Board of Directors of the Tucson Herpetologial Society.

This is all perfectly valid information on these care sheets, even if it hasn't been your personal experience. Dr.Jarchow is an excellent veterinarian for reptiles, and has cared for the desert tortoises at the Arizona Sonora Desert Museum for 30-40 years. He is in high demand in Tucson due to his excellent knowledge and medical care of desert tortoises as well as other reptiles. He has done a lot to save the desert tortoise in Arizona. In addition, he is so highly in demand this time of year for pre-hibernation checkups, that it's hard to get an appointment. He obviously has had great success carrying for desert tortoises. No veterinarian has shown themselves to be more knowledgeable of desert tortoises.

NONE of the information I have posted has been "bad information" as you have stated. I find your attitude disrespectful and would appreciate it if in the future you could simply communicate your difference of opinion rather than putting other people down. Our experiences are not always going to be identical to one another, even when outcomes are very positive.
 

Ciri

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
320
Location (City and/or State)
Tucson
Robin, you might find a local group helpful:

National Turtle and Tortoise Society, Inc.
(602) 275-6887
P.O. Box 66935, Phoenix, AZ 85082

http://www.phoenixherp.com

There are obviously a lot of differences of opinion about how to care for desert tortoises. I know it must be hard to sort out who is giving you the best information. My veterinarian in Tucson is excellent – Dr. James Jarchow.. I believe his office could give you the name of a good reptile veterinarian in Phoenix in case you need one. I've always found it's better to prepare ahead rather than wait until something happens. I always take mine in twice a year for checkups which is worked out really well to avoid bad (and more costly) infections. Also, a reptile veterinarian who is looking at your tortoise, considering the climate you live in, will be better able to give you information and answer questions as to how your precious tortoise should be cared for. I know this doesn't come at the best time since you just bought a house and lost your job! I hope things are going better on that front. You obviously care a lot about this little one, and that will go a long ways towards insuring that he/she is well cared for. Best wishes to you.
 

Ciri

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
320
Location (City and/or State)
Tucson
but many tortoises live outside in areas where daily highs top 100 and they don't suffer brain damage. When its over 100 for an outside tortoise, their core temp is over 100.

Here in Arizona desert tortoises are not active during the heat of the day when temperatures reach 100. Like other reptiles here in the desert they hide out when it's really hot. They often stay in their burrow during that time. They are active early and late in the day when it is not nearly so hot.

Quote below from the Arizona game and Fish website page on desert tortoise care:
"The shelter serves an important function in protecting the tortoise from the extreme heat and dryness of the summer, and providing a place to hibernate in the winter. It is important that you build a shelter that is well-insulated. Insulation can be provided by adding soil to the top, sides and bottom of the shelter. In the wild, desert tortoises prefer snug shelter, and they like to wedge themselves into a corner near the back; don’t make the shelter too roomy.

When building the shelter, keep in mind that orientation (which cardinal direction the burrow entrance is facing) affects burrow temperature. North and northeast facing shelters tend to be cooler, and provide a good refuge from summer heat. Optimal temperature range for the shelter is 68-85°F during the summer, and between 50-68°F in the winter. Shelter temperatures should always be kept below 90°F because a tortoise can overheat and suffer brain damage."
 

ascott

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
16,138
Location (City and/or State)
Apple Valley, California
Cori...there is this awesome feature on the forum called "ignore"...you can utilize it on any rude, disrespectful, pompous, ego riddled Ahole member you like...it sure does make the visit to the forum much more pleasant. Also, it allows you to ignore the trash talk that wastes so much time by those who simply want to convince others that they are as awesome as THEY think they are...you have shared some good info here...
 

Ciri

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
320
Location (City and/or State)
Tucson
Cori...there is this awesome feature on the forum called "ignore"...you can utilize it on any rude, disrespectful, pompous, ego riddled Ahole member you like...it sure does make the visit to the forum much more pleasant. Also, it allows you to ignore the trash talk that wastes so much time by those who simply want to convince others that they are as awesome as THEY think they are...you have shared some good info here...

Angela, Thank you so very much for your comment. I will look for the ignore feature. I do just want to share good info that could help others, and feel very fortunate to have such an exceptional reptile veterinarian. When I have a little one to take to him I sometimes even refer to the vet as the turtle or tortoise pediatrician!
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
NONE of the information I have posted has been "bad information" as you have stated. I find your attitude disrespectful and would appreciate it if in the future you could simply communicate your difference of opinion rather than putting other people down. Our experiences are not always going to be identical to one another, even when outcomes are very positive.

Telling people to water a tortoise only twice a week in a hot dry climate in summer and let the water dry up in between waterings IS bad information. Telling people that their tortoise is going to get brain damage if it goes over 95 degrees is completely false and also bad information.

I have no idea why you are lashing out in this way. Nothing I said was disrespectful and there was no attitude involved at all. Further, I put no one down and was inquiring about how often you had done what you were recommending and how well it worked for you. How could it be a put down, when I was trying to LEARN from your experience? Of course our experiences are not going to be identical. That is why I was asking about your experience.

I don't know your Dr. and have never heard of him, so can't comment one way or the other, but many vets are notorious for giving terrible tortoise advice and even killing them with their "treatment". If you have found a good one, that is great.

I think you have over-reacted here and possibly misunderstood the tone of my post.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Cori...there is this awesome feature on the forum called "ignore"...you can utilize it on any rude, disrespectful, pompous, ego riddled Ahole member you like...it sure does make the visit to the forum much more pleasant. Also, it allows you to ignore the trash talk that wastes so much time by those who simply want to convince others that they are as awesome as THEY think they are...you have shared some good info here...

My aren't we talented at insulting those we don't like without actually insulting them. Some people set a great example of the pot calling the kettle black. At least my advice is based on actual experience with the species in question vs. something made up out of thin air and emotion about how bad the human race is, when I've never even laid a hand on the species in question.
 

leigti

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
7,026
Location (City and/or State)
southeast Washington
...I'm afraid my amateurism is going to be judged, but you're probably right. I already know his substrate is wrong :(
Hello, welcome to the forum.your tortoise is absolutely adorable :) he's so tiny! I have a Russian tortoise and a box turtle. I have done a lot I mean a lot of research on the Internet and to books. And I can confidently say that this forum has the best information out there.I know it is scary to put pictures out there just waiting for people to rip them apart, but 99% of the time here people are great and they just want to give you helpful information.it takes time to get it "right" but you'll get there.sometimes you will get faster responses if you start a new thread in the specific sections, lighting, diet, etc. And also in the species specific sections. it's okay to have a bunch of threads going at the same time.and don't worry about the occasional bickering amongst members, it's just passionate people wanting the best for the tortoise. Read all the information research it some more here on the forum, and then make your own decision. I found the search option to be very helpful.there are numerous threads on just about every topic you can think of.
 

Ciri

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
320
Location (City and/or State)
Tucson
From the California turtle and tortoise club website:

"IMPORTANT: Desert tortoise hatchlings spend 95% of their lives underground in burrows with temps of 70's-80's F and excessive time at 95°F+ can "cook" them. Keeping them unnaturally under excessive dry heat conditions is why they are often seen soaking in the water dishes in aquariums-often for hours at a time - which is not natural, healthy behavior but rather an attempt to keep hydrated and save their own lives. This dehydration, possible with excessive heat, heat pads and heat rocks, aquariums, being kept up during winter in gas heated houses, air conditioning, lack of the burrow micro-climate, etc., is believed by many keepers and veterinarians to be the main root cause of bladder stones, as well as possibly implicated in "pyramiding" and soft/sunken in shells and swollen eyes."

http://www.tortoise.org/general/descare.html

So many websites, whose information was put together by reptile specialist veterinarians as well as knowledgeable hobbyists, say the same thing: excessive heat is dangerous.

Interestingly, it's often time the individual who accuses someone else of of giving and bad information, is the one who is doing it himself.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
From the California turtle and tortoise club website:

"IMPORTANT: Desert tortoise hatchlings spend 95% of their lives underground in burrows with temps of 70's-80's F and excessive time at 95°F+ can "cook" them. Keeping them unnaturally under excessive dry heat conditions is why they are often seen soaking in the water dishes in aquariums-often for hours at a time - which is not natural, healthy behavior but rather an attempt to keep hydrated and save their own lives. This dehydration, possible with excessive heat, heat pads and heat rocks, aquariums, being kept up during winter in gas heated houses, air conditioning, lack of the burrow micro-climate, etc., is believed by many keepers and veterinarians to be the main root cause of bladder stones, as well as possibly implicated in "pyramiding" and soft/sunken in shells and swollen eyes."

http://www.tortoise.org/general/descare.html

So many websites, whose information was put together by reptile specialist veterinarians as well as knowledgeable hobbyists, say the same thing: excessive heat is dangerous.

Interestingly, it's often time the individual who accuses someone else of of giving and bad information, is the one who is doing it himself.


I'm not saying excessive heat is not dangerous. I'm also a huge advocate of burrows and underground housing which many of my posts and threads demonstrate. I'm am saying that a lot of tortoises, of this species and other species too, sit above ground all day, either by choice or by keeper error, with temps above 95 and their brains do not get damaged. Should they be offered a proper burrow or retreat? Yes. Absolutely. Offering a basking area of 95-100 is not going to cause brain damage to any tortoise of any species, especially if there is a cooler side to the indoor enclosure. I advocate the things I advocate based on real world experience and decades of observing common mistakes. Seldom does any new keeper ever keep an indoor housed DT too warm. Quite the contrary, they almost unanimously don't keep them warm enough. I have watched so many die because the people didn't care for them properly, while all of mine survive and thrive, and so do the ones of the people who have followed my advice on the matter.

Keep in mind that I also used to follow the advice of these hallowed "experts" you revere. I used to back them and argue with people about their assertions just as you are now. Then I learned that they are just people and sometimes they are wrong. When following all the expert advice of the day led to failure after failure after failure, I began to try to understand what was going wrong. Luckily, I have been able to figure some of it out, apply it, and share the info with others who have been able to also successfully apply it. It is a mistake for you to close your mind because of what someone who seems important says in a care sheet. Go back and read any sulcata book in existence and you will see a litany of mis-information and incorrect assumptions. I have found all the care sheets for DT from the government agencies and Tortoise clubs to be even worse. I have found, tried and tested better ways to do things, and I'm attempting to share what I've learned here.

The root cause of bladder and kidneys stones is the dehydration that is usually recommended by the above mentioned folks. Yes the indoor enclosures are desiccating. That why I say to offer a humid hide that simulates what they'd get from a wild burrow. That is why I advocate daily soaks for hatchlings to compensate for our overly dry enclosures, both indoors and out. That is why I recommend damp substrates indoors, to compensate for the desiccating effects of the necessary heating equipment and house heaters and air conditioners. The damp substrate offers moderate humidity in an indoor enclosure that would other wise have extremely low humidity. Wanna make that argument that they don't have these things in the wild? Guess what. Somewhere between 300 and 3000 babies die for every one that makes it to adult hood out in the wild. Is that what you'd like to advocate simulating? All of the babies I raise my way survive to adulthood. All of them. Ask Yvonne, or any other DT rescuer what percentage of DT babies typically survive their first year. Compare that to my results, and then lets have a meaningful conversation.

This is not about me, or how great you and Ascott think I think I am. If you knew me and had met me, you'd know that is not the case. THIS IS ABOUT THE TORTOISES AND DOING OUR VERY BEST TO KEEP THEM ALIVE AND HEALTHY. Nothing more. This is why I point out the shortcomings of the conventional knowledge that your "experts" purport, and offer what I know what works better in its place. YOU are the one making this into some sort of personality clash. I want to talk about the best way to keep a DT baby alive and healthy, and some of the info in the links you posted is counter to that goal.

So back to the advice we are going to this poster: Yes. Keeping the entire enclosure at 100+ all the time would be bad. Offering a 100 degree warm spot, to simulate the sun outside, while offering a cooler side to move to when the tortoise feels warm enough, is not going to fry your baby's brain. Likewise if your tortoise happens to be outdoors and above ground on a summer day that is 96 degrees or hotter, he won't suffer instantaneous automatic brain damage.
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,390
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
So many websites, whose information was put together by reptile specialist veterinarians as well as knowledgeable hobbyists, say the same thing: excessive heat is dangerous.

Quite a bit of what you pull up off the 'net or read in books is old and outdated material. The printed page, once it is purchased and sitting on your shelf, never changes, even though the practices shown on the page have changed. I'd be willing to bet that your reptile specialists and veterinarians have long since changed their ideas on tortoise-keeping, and yet their works still show the old fashioned way.

Yes, baby tortoises spend a lot of time underground where the temperature is cooler. But that is a wild baby tortoise. In captivity a baby tortoise lives in some sort of container and we have to do the best we can to provide him with the moisture he needs so the lights don't dissicate him.
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,390
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
Robin: Please don't allow a difference of opinion between members confuse you. There really are different ways of caring for tortoises. Tom lives in a very dry desert-like area of California while Ciri is talking about keeping a tortoise in Arizona. Yes, it's dry and desert-like too, but quite different from California. I live in the Central Valley of California and what I have to do to achieve the correct temperatures and humidity for my babies is different from what Tom or Ciri has to do.

So, try to learn what the babies need to be healthy and achieve that any way you can. Read everyone's responses and pick and choose what you think will work best for you and your tortoises.
 
Top