New Mom to Sonoran Desert Tortoise Hatchling Needs Help!

Ciri

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Quite a bit of what you pull up off the 'net or read in books is old and outdated material. The printed page, once it is purchased and sitting on your shelf, never changes, even though the practices shown on the page have changed. I'd be willing to bet that your reptile specialists and veterinarians have long since changed their ideas on tortoise-keeping, and yet their works still show the old fashioned way.

Yes, baby tortoises spend a lot of time underground where the temperature is cooler. But that is a wild baby tortoise. In captivity a baby tortoise lives in some sort of container and we have to do the best we can to provide him with the moisture he needs so the lights don't dissicate him.

Yvonne, I'm confused. None of the information I have put up was from an old printed book.
The information I have put up in the way of website links is current. If you look at the Arizona Sonora Desert Museum care sheet for desert tortoises you will see at the bottom that it is dated for this year. This is information that is based on reptile specialist veterinarians with a lot of experience caring for desert tortoises. I don't always agree with everything, and tweak any care sheet info to fit what I'm more comfortable with.
That's why I posted earlier:
For hatchlings the care sheets I gave you links for don't address how often to soak the baby tortoise. A constant source of clean water in a very shallow dish is very important. I find hatchlings are in and out of the water all day. The water needs to be shallow enough that the hatchling can easily breathe while sitting in the water. (About a quarter of an inch or less is usually enough.)

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in the second paragraph. I had pointed out that excessive heat can be dangerous. So I guess you're agreeing with me there?

Personally, I prefer to offer more water rather than less. I find that there's a limit to how much an adult desert tortoise will drink or soak regardless of what I do. I prefer leaving a clean water dish which is sanitized daily available to the desert tortoise whether hatchling or adult. It just makes me more comfortable. However, watching my adult desert tortoise's behavior I realize that it was not necessary. But my tendency is to want to go above and beyond. So I would never consider it to be bad information when what is needed for the tortoise is explained in detail. We can always do more than what's required. And I do.
 

Tom

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I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in the second paragraph. I had pointed out that excessive heat can be dangerous. So I guess you're agreeing with me there?

Personally, I prefer to offer more water rather than less. I find that there's a limit to how much an adult desert tortoise will drink or soak regardless of what I do. I prefer leaving a clean water dish which is sanitized daily available to the desert tortoise whether hatchling or adult. It just makes me more comfortable. However, watching my adult desert tortoise's behavior I realize that it was not necessary. But my tendency is to want to go above and beyond. So I would never consider it to be bad information when what is needed for the tortoise is explained in detail. We can always do more than what's required. And I do.

I can't speak for Yvonne, but I agree that excessive heat can be dangerous. We seem to be disagreeing about what is excessive and how best to apply it.

And I completely agree with everything you said in the second quoted paragraph above. I do the same things you do in regards to this topic, and we are both disagreeing with what most DT care sheets advocate, including the ones you linked. Why are we arguing? Why the personal attacks and hostility?
 

Hermes

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This thread is very aggressive lol everyone should just take a breath and think about things, I'm new here and I'm only an expert at being an amateur, but the reason the original person posted here was because she needs help, and while everyone here was trying to help, turning this thread into a sparing match is just going to make the OP "chose a side" and it shouldn't be about that, besides personal attacks, passive aggressive post and calling people "THEY" while pretending to be talking about someone else... What is this middle school??
With danger of becoming a cliche, "can't we all just get along?"
 

Ciri

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I can't speak for Yvonne, but I agree that excessive heat can be dangerous. We seem to be disagreeing about what is excessive and how best to apply it.

And I completely agree with everything you said in the second quoted paragraph above. I do the same things you do in regards to this topic, and we are both disagreeing with what most DT care sheets advocate, including the ones you linked. Why are we arguing? Why the personal attacks and hostility?

Tom, things went south when you accused me of giving Robin "bad information". And you backed it up by saying how there's a lot of bad information on the Internet. That was very demeaning. I have felt bullied by you. When I share information with another member who is in need of help and you see something you want to comment on, I would appreciate it if you could refrain from telling them that I have given them "bad information" and instead would be happy to hear about any particular item you disagree with. We can have a discourse. But it just needs to be respectful. If need be, and we do differ on a major point, you know we can just agree to disagree. It doesn't have to mean that either one of us is doing something wrong by stating our opinion.

It's nice we do agree about how best to soak desert tortoise hatchlings. I did post that shortly after sending Robin the care sheet links. I do have a friend with desert tortoises (10 months old) who is doing the soaking as described in the care sheet. She has not had any problem. I, of course, would still prefer her that she do it my way, and leave out water for them every day. But I can't control what other people do, and her outcome so far has been very positive.
 

Yvonne G

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I'm stepping in as moderator here. From this point on we will only talk about the OP's original questions:

"QUESTION: When he burrows, is he suppose to be completely covered? He doesn't have the power to shovel enough of the sand so he can hide, so he lays on top, buried as much as the sand will allow.

QUESTION: I'm reading conflicting reports on diet! Shimmy LOVES green beans, leafy spinach, bok choy, cilantro... Are they vegetarians or herbivores? I have desert landscaping -- there's only ONE type of weed I can get him to eat - is that enough? I've also read that supplements are harmful - is that true? I bought a dried supplement that contains majority of the grass/weeds that he needs - should I put that on the veggies?

QUESTION: Will he tell me if he wants to hibernate this first year? Do I have to hibernate him his first year? If so, PLEASE give me consistent advice on how to do so. I live in a house with a garage, my back yard is desert but I have 2 dogs. I can easily block access if need be, but what if it gets too cold during the winter?

QUESTION: What does normal hatchling poop look like? Again, I'm super-paranoid and want to ensure my baby is healthy as can be! He normally produces 1 - 2 pieces of poo each day. Sorry to be gross, but should it be totally solid, or a bit soft? Can you tell if they're sick by their poop (like you can with dogs?)"


Any other posts will be removed from the thread.
 

Ciri

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I'm stepping in as moderator here. From this point on we will only talk about the OP's original questions:

"QUESTION: When he burrows, is he suppose to be completely covered? He doesn't have the power to shovel enough of the sand so he can hide, so he lays on top, buried as much as the sand will allow.

QUESTION: I'm reading conflicting reports on diet! Shimmy LOVES green beans, leafy spinach, bok choy, cilantro... Are they vegetarians or herbivores? I have desert landscaping -- there's only ONE type of weed I can get him to eat - is that enough? I've also read that supplements are harmful - is that true? I bought a dried supplement that contains majority of the grass/weeds that he needs - should I put that on the veggies?

QUESTION: Will he tell me if he wants to hibernate this first year? Do I have to hibernate him his first year? If so, PLEASE give me consistent advice on how to do so. I live in a house with a garage, my back yard is desert but I have 2 dogs. I can easily block access if need be, but what if it gets too cold during the winter?

QUESTION: What does normal hatchling poop look like? Again, I'm super-paranoid and want to ensure my baby is healthy as can be! He normally produces 1 - 2 pieces of poo each day. Sorry to be gross, but should it be totally solid, or a bit soft? Can you tell if they're sick by their poop (like you can with dogs?)"


Any other posts will be removed from the thread.

Thank you.
When he buries himself in the soil he does not need to be entirely covered by the soil. Just getting partway into the dirt can help them feel more comfortable in a little space just their size.
 

Tom

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"QUESTION: When he burrows, is he suppose to be completely covered? He doesn't have the power to shovel enough of the sand so he can hide, so he lays on top, buried as much as the sand will allow.

QUESTION: I'm reading conflicting reports on diet! Shimmy LOVES green beans, leafy spinach, bok choy, cilantro... Are they vegetarians or herbivores? I have desert landscaping -- there's only ONE type of weed I can get him to eat - is that enough? I've also read that supplements are harmful - is that true? I bought a dried supplement that contains majority of the grass/weeds that he needs - should I put that on the veggies?

QUESTION: Will he tell me if he wants to hibernate this first year? Do I have to hibernate him his first year? If so, PLEASE give me consistent advice on how to do so. I live in a house with a garage, my back yard is desert but I have 2 dogs. I can easily block access if need be, but what if it gets too cold during the winter?

QUESTION: What does normal hatchling poop look like? Again, I'm super-paranoid and want to ensure my baby is healthy as can be! He normally produces 1 - 2 pieces of poo each day. Sorry to be gross, but should it be totally solid, or a bit soft? Can you tell if they're sick by their poop (like you can with dogs?)"

1. Digging down into the substrate for cover is not the same as digging a burrow to live in. They really can't dig a burrow in dry sand because it won't hold a shape. Indoors I use humid hides to simulate a burrow. I use black plastic dishwashing tubs from Walmart. I flip it up side down, cut out a door hole just big enough for the tortoise and dampen the substrate under it. Outdoors you can make them a burrow to escape the sun and heat any number of ways. I typically dig a hole bury a half flower pot or something similar, and then pile dirt high on top of it for more insulation. I face the entrance North and make sure that rain won't run into them. I make them smaller for babies and progressively larger as they grow. Here is an idea of what can be done for older, bigger ones. The one in this thread was made for a tropical species that does no hibernate, so you can disregard all the heating and electrical info. I built identical ones with no heat for other hibernating species and they work extremely well.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/daisys-new-enclosure.28662/

2. Diet: Tortoise eat what they are used to eating. New foods usually have to be introduced in small amounts, mixed in with other favorite foods. This requires much time and patience, but the reward is a tortoise that will eat anything and be healthier for it. The best foods are certain weeds, leaves and grasses. Supplements are not harmful if used correctly. In fact they are quite good for them. I suggest a tiny pinch of calcium powder twice a week and a reptile vitamin once a week. Always good to leave a cuttle bone lying around too. They might not touch it for months, but its good to have it around in case they need it. Here are some food suggestions:
Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds:
There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard

Other good stuff:
"Testudo Seed Mix" from http://www.tortoisesupply.com/SeedMixes
Pasture mixes or other seeds from http://www.groworganic.com/seeds.html
Homegrown alfalfa
Mazuri Tortoise Chow
ZooMed Grassland Tortoise Food

3. Hibernation is a controversial subject. Opinions swing wildly in both direction. Whatever you decide, I recommend it not be done outside, unless you have and underground structure like the one in my linked thread above. So many of them die outside when left to the whims of mother nature in a typical backyard. If you do want to do it, do it inside in a safe, cold place. My opinion is that species that would hibernate in the wild should be safely hibernated in captivity too. It has been demonstrated that these species do not have to hibernate. They can survive without it. Whether or not it is better for them, or what the risks of hibernating or not hibernating are, will be debated forever.

4. The consistency and color of poop will vary with the diet, housing strategy, level of hydration, etc... Firm, dark, mini tootsie rolls are a good sign. Its normal for them to be a little looser when grocery store foods are fed.
 

bouaboua

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Hello and for a very late Welcome. Good to have you here.
 

Robin!

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Thank you ALL for your input AND opinions! I appreciate the time you took to help me out and I'm so relieved that I've found this forum. I had to drop off for a while due to losing a family member, but I am back and my baby Shimmy is still doing great. I was lucky enough to find someone who has experience caring for hatchlings.
She had a variety of flowers and leaves for him - and he loved them. So now he is getting a variety of flowers, leaves, kale and the occasional green bean for a snack.
Today I am going to change his substrate and plant native things for him to graze on. I'll use the care sheets provided - thank you!

My only question as of right now (that I can think of) - is his burrowing. He has outgrown his coconut where he goes to sleep and attempt to burrow so I have to help him in & out - so I'm changing his 'bedroom' to accommodate his quickly-growing size. What is the ideal situation for him to burrow - what kind of structure should I build?

His current home is a plastic extra-large under-bed storage bin/box. I know he needs a place to 'sleep', but will he want to burrow elsewhere?

THANK YOU!! And please, life is toooooo precious and short to be bickering over the small stuff - trust me, I just had a jarring reminder myself.

Have a great day!
 

Robin!

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Quite a bit of what you pull up off the 'net or read in books is old and outdated material. The printed page, once it is purchased and sitting on your shelf, never changes, even though the practices shown on the page have changed. I'd be willing to bet that your reptile specialists and veterinarians have long since changed their ideas on tortoise-keeping, and yet their works still show the old fashioned way.

Yes, baby tortoises spend a lot of time underground where the temperature is cooler. But that is a wild baby tortoise. In captivity a baby tortoise lives in some sort of container and we have to do the best we can to provide him with the moisture he needs so the lights don't dissicate him.

Thank you so much for the helpful info!
 

Robin!

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I'm not saying excessive heat is not dangerous. I'm also a huge advocate of burrows and underground housing which many of my posts and threads demonstrate. I'm am saying that a lot of tortoises, of this species and other species too, sit above ground all day, either by choice or by keeper error, with temps above 95 and their brains do not get damaged. Should they be offered a proper burrow or retreat? Yes. Absolutely. Offering a basking area of 95-100 is not going to cause brain damage to any tortoise of any species, especially if there is a cooler side to the indoor enclosure. I advocate the things I advocate based on real world experience and decades of observing common mistakes. Seldom does any new keeper ever keep an indoor housed DT too warm. Quite the contrary, they almost unanimously don't keep them warm enough. I have watched so many die because the people didn't care for them properly, while all of mine survive and thrive, and so do the ones of the people who have followed my advice on the matter.

Keep in mind that I also used to follow the advice of these hallowed "experts" you revere. I used to back them and argue with people about their assertions just as you are now. Then I learned that they are just people and sometimes they are wrong. When following all the expert advice of the day led to failure after failure after failure, I began to try to understand what was going wrong. Luckily, I have been able to figure some of it out, apply it, and share the info with others who have been able to also successfully apply it. It is a mistake for you to close your mind because of what someone who seems important says in a care sheet. Go back and read any sulcata book in existence and you will see a litany of mis-information and incorrect assumptions. I have found all the care sheets for DT from the government agencies and Tortoise clubs to be even worse. I have found, tried and tested better ways to do things, and I'm attempting to share what I've learned here.

The root cause of bladder and kidneys stones is the dehydration that is usually recommended by the above mentioned folks. Yes the indoor enclosures are desiccating. That why I say to offer a humid hide that simulates what they'd get from a wild burrow. That is why I advocate daily soaks for hatchlings to compensate for our overly dry enclosures, both indoors and out. That is why I recommend damp substrates indoors, to compensate for the desiccating effects of the necessary heating equipment and house heaters and air conditioners. The damp substrate offers moderate humidity in an indoor enclosure that would other wise have extremely low humidity. Wanna make that argument that they don't have these things in the wild? Guess what. Somewhere between 300 and 3000 babies die for every one that makes it to adult hood out in the wild. Is that what you'd like to advocate simulating? All of the babies I raise my way survive to adulthood. All of them. Ask Yvonne, or any other DT rescuer what percentage of DT babies typically survive their first year. Compare that to my results, and then lets have a meaningful conversation.

This is not about me, or how great you and Ascott think I think I am. If you knew me and had met me, you'd know that is not the case. THIS IS ABOUT THE TORTOISES AND DOING OUR VERY BEST TO KEEP THEM ALIVE AND HEALTHY. Nothing more. This is why I point out the shortcomings of the conventional knowledge that your "experts" purport, and offer what I know what works better in its place. YOU are the one making this into some sort of personality clash. I want to talk about the best way to keep a DT baby alive and healthy, and some of the info in the links you posted is counter to that goal.

So back to the advice we are going to this poster: Yes. Keeping the entire enclosure at 100+ all the time would be bad. Offering a 100 degree warm spot, to simulate the sun outside, while offering a cooler side to move to when the tortoise feels warm enough, is not going to fry your baby's brain. Likewise if your tortoise happens to be outdoors and above ground on a summer day that is 96 degrees or hotter, he won't suffer instantaneous automatic brain damage.


I admire your passion for these sweet creatures. Thank you for all of your guidance thus far - I'll be reporting back later once I get all my supplies.
 

Robin!

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This thread is very aggressive lol everyone should just take a breath and think about things, I'm new here and I'm only an expert at being an amateur, but the reason the original person posted here was because she needs help, and while everyone here was trying to help, turning this thread into a sparing match is just going to make the OP "chose a side" and it shouldn't be about that, besides personal attacks, passive aggressive post and calling people "THEY" while pretending to be talking about someone else... What is this middle school??
With danger of becoming a cliche, "can't we all just get along?"

Thanks for havin' my back and for posting your kind thoughts!
 

Hermes

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My only question as of right now (that I can think of) - is his burrowing. He has outgrown his coconut where he goes to sleep and attempt to burrow so I have to help him in & out - so I'm changing his 'bedroom' to accommodate his quickly-growing size. What is the ideal situation for him to burrow - what kind of structure should I build?

His current home is a plastic extra-large under-bed storage bin/box. I know he needs a place to 'sleep', but will he want to burrow elsewhere?

THANK YOU!! And please, life is toooooo precious and short to be bickering over the small stuff - trust me, I just had a jarring reminder myself.

Have a great day!

Lots of people here use plastic shoe boxes turned over and buried a bit in the substrate and filled with humid substrate, I personally already had a fake rock cave that I had from a lizard that is too big for it now but when Turbo outgrows the entrance to the cave I'll just use a plastic shoe box from Walmart too.
 

the_newzie

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Welcome from NV! Good luck with your little guy/girl!!! I just got one myself (in the beginning of summer) and thanks to this forum, I now know 10,000% more than I did when I started (unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I still have 1,000,000,000,000% more to go)!
 

Robin!

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OK y'all - I got new substrate so I need your guidance please! I admire the passion that has been so evident in this thread - but we all need to remember that parents have different ways of raising kids - so we're gonna have different opinions on how to raise our torts...it's human nature. I appreciate ALL input...keep it comin'! (I didn't realize they had such a low survival rate!!!!!!!!)

Shimmy is in a 24"x24" plastic sweater bin, 6" tall.
I have a bag of cypress mulch from the pet store, and organic compost mulch which consists of bark mulch, composted plant/wood products, sawdust & gypsum. I was thinking I could either combine them or do like a gradual transition and separate them so that I can possibly grow some plants for him in the mulch area. Is this OK? GO!!

THANK YOU!
 

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