New outdoor/glass porch heated nightbox

Eredant

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Pretty pleased with the new nightbox that I've built. I wouldn't be surprised if it is better isolated than my own nighttime enclosure/house. The dimensions are roughly 120x60x60cm.

The sides made from: 18mm cedar boards, 6mm plywood, 4 cm PUR, 6mm plywood, reflective bubblewrap. A PVC curtain at the entrance to keep the heat in.
The top: 18mm plywood, 4cm PUR
The bottom: 18mm plywood, 4cm PUR, 6mm plywood, reflective bubblewrap, 80W trace heating cable, rubber flooring. I intend to add some potting soil so the tortoises can dig in a little, and to distribute the heat evenly.

The heater is ofcourse controlled by a thermostat. I intend to add a wireless temperature/humidity sensor, so I can get an alert in case the heater fails.

All the wood has made it pretty heavy (>50 kg) so I've put it on casters. That made the entrance a little too high, so I added a detachable ramp. I don't want to give the tortoises the option to hide underneath the box. I'm aware that the ramp could be a hazard for falling over. Once the box is in its final location I'll probably add plants/rocks/soils on either side of the ramp to fill in the gaps.

The nightbox is a temporary solution to house my two Aldabras. I'll eventually need to build a heated shed, but placing this nightbox in my greenhouse or in our 'glass porch' (where the picture was taken) should allow me to finish some other projects first.

Outdoor enclosure.jpeg
 
Last edited:

Eredant

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One more thing, one reason that the box is a little overbuilt. I want it to function as a bench, for me to sit on while watching the tortoises.
 

EllieMay

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It looks amazing! Love your ramp! I like how you’ve made it wider at the entrance...My Sulcata uses a ramp for his box...he doesn’t have any issues with it and learned that the box was his place within a week. I was so proud:)
 
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Pretty pleased with the new nightbox that I've built. I wouldn't be surprised if it is better isolated than my own nighttime enclosure/house. The dimensions are roughly 120x60x60cm.

The sides made from: 18mm cedar boards, 6mm plywood, 4 cm PUR, 6mm plywood, reflective bubblewrap. A PVC curtain at the entrance to keep the heat in.
The top: 18mm plywood, 4cm PUR
The bottom: 18mm plywood, 4cm PUR, 6mm plywood, reflective bubblewrap, 80W trace heating cable, rubber flooring. I intend to add some potting soil so the tortoises can dig in a little, and to distribute the heat evenly.

The heater is ofcourse controlled by a thermostat. I intend to add a wireless temperature/humidity sensor, so I can get an alert in case the heater fails.

All the wood has made it pretty heavy (>50 kg) so I've put it on casters. That made the entrance a little too high, so I added a detachable ramp. I don't want to give the tortoises the option to hide underneath the box. I'm aware that the ramp could be a hazard for falling over. Once the box is in its final location I'll probably add plants/rocks/soils on either side of the ramp to fill in the gaps.

The nightbox is a temporary solution to house my two Aldabras. I'll eventually need to build a heated shed, but placing this nightbox in my greenhouse or in our 'glass porch' (where the picture was taken) should allow me to finish some other projects first.

View attachment 271020
Really nice! I love the edges on the ramp. Nice touch.
 

Tom

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PUR is insulation? Not familiar with that name.

Aldabras in Belgium? That's not going to be easy in a couple of years.

Two? They should never be housed in pairs.

60cm is not going to last more than a year even for one of them, assuming they are tiny right now.

I would not use heat cables under them. Not safe for tortoises. I also wouldn't recommend CHEs as those will burn the tops of the carapace as they rapidly gain size. Radiant heat panels and oil-filled radiant heater will work best.

You will need to add damp substrate (no soil) and water tubs to give them the needed humidity. This species doesn't do well in dry climates. They thrive with humidity.

No potting soil. It usually has additives, though I don't know how its done in Belgium. Its made from composted yard waste, and there is no way to know what is in it, even if there are not potentially deadly additives like perlite.

I'm curious to see if the cedar repels tortoises as it does insects. If not, I might start incorporating that into my outdoor builds.
 

Eredant

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A bit strange to see this thread get picked up again after more than two years. Tom, your tone is coming of as quite agressive.

- Polyurethane rigid foam insulation.
- They now have a 15sqm (161 sqft) heated shed (7cm of that same foam insulation) with an array of 3 T5 UVB 120cm lights hanging +- 50cm above the ground . They spent last winter in the shed and that went very well. That other hide box is still inside the shed and they still use it because they enjoy cramming themselves in tight spaces.
- Yes two, I say plenty of other other people keep them like that in Europe, For instance use Bee62 (who I believe has died) with her tortoises Mahé & Moyenne. She was from Germany, which climate wise is as bad as Belgium. Not sure if you would have given her she same 'advice'. Regardless, I've had them for about 3 years now without issues. I'll see wht arrangements need to be made when it becomes an issue.
- The heat cable is still in place. I glued it down below a layer of rubber so they have no direct access to it. It's connected to
 

Eredant

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A bit strange to see this thread get picked up again after more than two years. Tom, your tone is coming of as quite agressive, why **** on something that's 2-3 years old?

- Polyurethane rigid foam insulation.
- They now have a 15sqm (161 sqft) heated shed (7cm of that same foam insulation) with an array of 3 T5 UVB 120cm lights hanging +- 50cm above the ground . They spent last winter in the shed and that went very well. That other hide box is still inside the shed and they still use it because they enjoy cramming themselves in tight spaces. I consulted with a number of people that keep them in colder climates and generally people give them the opportunity to go outside even when it's snowing, others are drawing the line around 16°C (60F). I'm sure plenty of people will disagree on that, but I genuinly got that response from multiple people that had been keeping adult Aldabras in NW Europe.
- Yes two, I say plenty of other other people keep them like that in Europe, For instance use Bee62 (who I believe has died) with her tortoises Mahé & Moyenne. She was from Germany, which climate wise is as bad as Belgium. Not sure if you would have given her she same 'advice'. Regardless, I've had them for about 3 years now without issues. I'll see wht arrangements need to be made when it becomes an issue. Fyi, they recently restriced housing the species, you cannot buy/keep/import they anymore in Belgium without approval from the (the office of) the minister of animal wellfare.
- The heat cable is still in place. I glued it down below a layer of rubber so they have no direct access to it. It's connected to a thermostat. The shed itself is heated by an oil filled radiant heater.
- Soil types do differ. Around here it is quite basically humus. Regardless, the shed is filled with a layer of bark/peat/potting soil/compost with the idea in mind that it needs to have high humidity. In their outside enclosure I built them a shallow pond so they can soak as much as they want. Inside they have a large drainage plate to use as a drinking bowl and to soak in.
- Cedar doesn't repel tortoises.
 

Emmawilly

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Can we see photographs of the aldabras please! How big are they now? Would love to see some piccies?!? ?
 

Blackdog1714

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A bit strange to see this thread get picked up again after more than two years. Tom, your tone is coming of as quite agressive, why **** on something that's 2-3 years old?

- Polyurethane rigid foam insulation.
- They now have a 15sqm (161 sqft) heated shed (7cm of that same foam insulation) with an array of 3 T5 UVB 120cm lights hanging +- 50cm above the ground . They spent last winter in the shed and that went very well. That other hide box is still inside the shed and they still use it because they enjoy cramming themselves in tight spaces. I consulted with a number of people that keep them in colder climates and generally people give them the opportunity to go outside even when it's snowing, others are drawing the line around 16°C (60F). I'm sure plenty of people will disagree on that, but I genuinly got that response from multiple people that had been keeping adult Aldabras in NW Europe.
- Yes two, I say plenty of other other people keep them like that in Europe, For instance use Bee62 (who I believe has died) with her tortoises Mahé & Moyenne. She was from Germany, which climate wise is as bad as Belgium. Not sure if you would have given her she same 'advice'. Regardless, I've had them for about 3 years now without issues. I'll see wht arrangements need to be made when it becomes an issue. Fyi, they recently restriced housing the species, you cannot buy/keep/import they anymore in Belgium without approval from the (the office of) the minister of animal wellfare.
- The heat cable is still in place. I glued it down below a layer of rubber so they have no direct access to it. It's connected to a thermostat. The shed itself is heated by an oil filled radiant heater.
- Soil types do differ. Around here it is quite basically humus. Regardless, the shed is filled with a layer of bark/peat/potting soil/compost with the idea in mind that it needs to have high humidity. In their outside enclosure I built them a shallow pond so they can soak as much as they want. Inside they have a large drainage plate to use as a drinking bowl and to soak in.
- Cedar doesn't repel tortoises.
The thought of caring for such a large tort scares me and I live below the Mason Dixon line. As far as the soil issue it pays to know the exact content since when you add water you assist the bacteria in breaking down the matter in the compost- this can be acidic or alkaline. That is why we recommend the fine fir bark, cypress, or coco choir. Plain dirt from your yard also has the best controls (You) as far as fertilizers, pesticides ..etc. I personaly would like to know what you are doing to minimuze the bump damage- a huge tort could easily shatter a window in a sunroom. One member in Michigan has Aldabs and he made a metal fence with steel plate to go inside his perimeter privacy fence. I wish you the best as the logistics for a leopard and a russian are tough in enough in a moderately mild winter location!
 

Eredant

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The thought of caring for such a large tort scares me and I live below the Mason Dixon line. As far as the soil issue it pays to know the exact content since when you add water you assist the bacteria in breaking down the matter in the compost- this can be acidic or alkaline. That is why we recommend the fine fir bark, cypress, or coco choir. Plain dirt from your yard also has the best controls (You) as far as fertilizers, pesticides ..etc. I personaly would like to know what you are doing to minimuze the bump damage- a huge tort could easily shatter a window in a sunroom. One member in Michigan has Aldabs and he made a metal fence with steel plate to go inside his perimeter privacy fence. I wish you the best as the logistics for a leopard and a russian are tough in enough in a moderately mild winter location!
Back when they were in the sunroom, I had built a wooden 'pen' that was approx 40 cm high so they were not in direct contact with the glass. Not because I was concerned about they damaging the windows at that age (although they can scratch glass), but being surrounded by glass would be quite stressful they would continuously try to get out. The same thing happens in terrariums, but there at least they don't see a nice meadow on the other side of the glass.

Now they are in that heated shed, which is 4cm wood with 7cm insulation on the inside. . The entire yard has about 30cm of concrete plate below the ground and 20-30 above the ground above that it's wooden panels/fencing which they cannot see through.

One of the plans that I have in the works, as they continue to grow, is to attach the shed to a temporary greenhouse in the winter months so they can comfortably go outside even in the winter (november-march). I'm still figuring out exactly how to do it. My thought for now:
- Use one of those removable plastic tunnel greenhouses
- Have a removable wooden fence so the tortoises cannot touch (and rip through) the plastic
- To make the removable part work I could put hollow pipes in the ground. I can then slide the posts of the removable fence in these pipes. Same for the tubes that hold up the greenhouse.
 

Blackdog1714

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There is a thread on her somewhere from someone in England that made an awesome tortoise building. Due to building codes it had to be brick and match the existing home and shed structures. It is not impossible to keep aldabs where you are it is just very expensive and requires redundant systems in case of failure due to the climate. You have a quandary in that you have keep changing the temporary setups and plan for a long term setup. Good luck
 

Blackdog1714

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Wow that hurt doing that search but wow I am glad I did. This is a thread that will give you an excellent idea of what it will take to do what you need to to keep an ALDAB. This just for redfoots I think so you would need to upsize a bit!

 

Eredant

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Wow that hurt doing that search but wow I am glad I did. This is a thread that will give you an excellent idea of what it will take to do what you need to to keep an ALDAB. This just for redfoots I think so you would need to upsize a bit!

I honestly see my current setup as functionally equivalent as what this person has built. My wooden shed is 10x16ft and very well insulated, even during the winter months the lighting is basically enough to keep it up to temperature. I took this off-the-shelf shed, put it on a (insulated) concrete slab and then insultated it by putting 7 cm foam insulation on the inside (even the doors and windows). 1623071337352.png

You're correct about the quandry regarding the (temporary) setups. But for me it's clear that it makes more sense to plan 2-3 years ahead rather than >10. I'm 31 years old, so my financial situation is still improving. Who knows what will happen in 5 years, I may want/need to move, I may decide to sell them, our government may decide that nobody can keep this species, ...
 

Tom

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A bit strange to see this thread get picked up again after more than two years. Tom, your tone is coming of as quite agressive, why **** on something that's 2-3 years old?

- Polyurethane rigid foam insulation.
- They now have a 15sqm (161 sqft) heated shed (7cm of that same foam insulation) with an array of 3 T5 UVB 120cm lights hanging +- 50cm above the ground . They spent last winter in the shed and that went very well. That other hide box is still inside the shed and they still use it because they enjoy cramming themselves in tight spaces. I consulted with a number of people that keep them in colder climates and generally people give them the opportunity to go outside even when it's snowing, others are drawing the line around 16°C (60F). I'm sure plenty of people will disagree on that, but I genuinly got that response from multiple people that had been keeping adult Aldabras in NW Europe.
- Yes two, I say plenty of other other people keep them like that in Europe, For instance use Bee62 (who I believe has died) with her tortoises Mahé & Moyenne. She was from Germany, which climate wise is as bad as Belgium. Not sure if you would have given her she same 'advice'. Regardless, I've had them for about 3 years now without issues. I'll see wht arrangements need to be made when it becomes an issue. Fyi, they recently restriced housing the species, you cannot buy/keep/import they anymore in Belgium without approval from the (the office of) the minister of animal wellfare.
- The heat cable is still in place. I glued it down below a layer of rubber so they have no direct access to it. It's connected to a thermostat. The shed itself is heated by an oil filled radiant heater.
- Soil types do differ. Around here it is quite basically humus. Regardless, the shed is filled with a layer of bark/peat/potting soil/compost with the idea in mind that it needs to have high humidity. In their outside enclosure I built them a shallow pond so they can soak as much as they want. Inside they have a large drainage plate to use as a drinking bowl and to soak in.
- Cedar doesn't repel tortoises.
I didn't see this thread two years ago and didn't look at the date of the original post. It came up under "new posts" since people responded to it yesterday. I'm not sh**ting on it. I'm pointing out potential problems to help you and anyone reading.

"Other people do it" is poor justification for doing things the wrong way. I've seen lots of people do it here too. Doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean they didn't have problems. In fact I did advise Sabine against keeping them in pairs. I advise everyone not to do that with any species anywhere in the world.

Soil, humus, compost... All the same. What composted material is being used to make your soil? "Potting soil" usually contains perlite, which is deadly to tortoises. Does yours have it? Even if it doesn't, someone reading this might see what you've written and go buy soil with perlite in it since they read it on the internet and no one countered the info. Do you buy it in a bag from a store? If yes, there is no way to know what is in it. Could be grass clippings from a yard recently sprayed with chemicals of one sort or another. Could be toxic plants like azaleas or oleander. No way to know.

Peat can "burn" their plastrons. Shouldn't be used as a tortoise substrate.

Shame your government has decided to further restrict your freedom. Seems to be a trend world wide. "They" sure like to tell "us" what we can't and can't do. This sort of government bullying seems to be accepted in Europe nowadays. Here in the US we start, and win, wars over this kind of stuff. Just ask Great Britain how that went for them. They were the greatest military force on the planet at the time. We kicked their a*ses, and we will do it again to anyone else that steps on our freedom. Just watch. Its coming soon.

I've recently learned much more above housing giant species of tortoises in captivity. One very common problem for all tortoise species is lack of space. People tend to keep them in too small of an area. I'm talking about all species. This causes a myriad of problems and seems to be magnified in the two giant island species, Galapagos torts and Aldabras. Zoos and private keepers have been failing these two species for decades. I don't see how they can be successfully housed in a frozen climate over the long term unless you have a giant warehouse with heated floors, redundant heating strategies, and an automatic generator to run everything in the event of a power outage. Keeping them cooped up in a shed for months at a time is not a good strategy and will lead to problems. They need to walk over large areas daily. This maintains their mental health, digestive health, and their physical health. That can't be accomplished in a shed over an entire winter.

Why do I bring these things up? Because I don't think this species is right for your climate, or Sabine's, or people who live in northern states here in the US, and I'm curious how you are going to manage these issues as they get larger. I'm curious to see what what challenges and problems you encounter and what you do about them. I literally travel the world for business. I seek out reptile keepers world wide and try to learn from their successes and failures. I try to see what works and what doesn't. What solutions they invent to problems they encounter. I talk tortoises everywhere I go and have been privileged to have seen some amazing things over the years. I like to point out the failures to prevent others from making those mistakes, and I like to celebrate the successes as examples for all of us to follow. I can't help it if this offends or upsets you. I wish that it didn't, and hope that it doesn't. When experienced tortoise people question what I'm doing, I consider the question, consider what I'm doing and why, and either explain it, or make a change for the better. I don't get butt hurt over it. I hope the conversation can continue. If I wasn't interested in your ideas and perspective, I wouldn't ask. I won't be insulted if you tell me I'm all wrong and explain how you are meeting the copious exercise needs of your giant tortoise species in winter time. One way or another, I will learn something from your responses and assertions, and welcome the opportunity to do so.

Thank you for explaining the PUR term. You taught me something new that I didn't know. Over here we call that "rigid foam insulation". I use it in my boxes too and it works great.
 

Eredant

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Tom, I appreciate your perspective and understand that you're trying to educate and look out for the welfare of the animals.

That being said. I stopped contributing to the forum because I don't want to spend my days arguing with strangers on the internet and defending EVERY little decision I make in my hobby. That is way too much frustration and negative energy. It is literally possible to criticise everything because there is no objective truth for most of these things like the perfect soil, or diet, or enclosure temperature, ... and on top of that we all make decisions based on what's practical, financially possible, ... I don't want to write an entire paper to justify every detail you might see in a picture.

You say that "other people do it" is poor justification, but honestly isn't that what most of this advice/knowledge is based on? People having success with a certain setup*. And if you find one case of someone having bad experience it must mean that it's bad.

*Yes, you can argue that nobody in Europe has any success with this species. That could very well be due to the climate, or it could be because since it's difficult to house them people are keeping them in smaller groups.
 
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