New paradigm view historical figure?

jeff kushner

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Boring thoughts.....be warned.

I spend 2+ hrs a day in the car....so I have lots of time to think. I do not use my phone unless I need to.....love/hate relationship with it like most here.

So I tend to read a bit in my downtime and I have gone to a lot of places so I was thinking this morning (in the snow) about Stonewall Jackson, yeah, that one & when we visited Jackson tomb with the kids 20 yrs ago .....and my own reading, I found that he was basically, a hypochondriac. He was under 40 years old yet had 12 different "issues" including cold feet and anxiety along with dyspepsia(upset tummy), rheumatism(joint issues) & others. If we focus on just those....what picture of the man emerges? Not very strong in character, right? Now transpose this with the story of how he came famous "for sitting astride his horse like a stonewall while facing overwhelming odds". That's the gist of the story....hang on to this for a sec.

Now let me switch subjects before I tie them together.

In life, there are do'ers and watchers. Have someone drop with a heart attack in a crowd of strangers and you'll see the difference. Have a thief run off with a purse at a grocery store and you'll see the difference. 99% of people by my own estimate, are watchers unless it's a close family member. It's no ones fault....most folks simply freeze, even if they want to do something, they cannot. I don't know why......I've never figured it out, but take it as pretty factual (not sure it would pass Mythbusters though)


Now let's bring this all together and see if I'm truly off my rocker, or it starts to make sense.

I propose that Jackson didn't sit because he was fearless at all......all his maladies to me, points to him being a "fraidy cat"....basically being forced into a terrifying situation and he did the only thing he could, he froze not as inspiration but because he was in shock!
So to me, he was not who history says he was, not by a long shot.....I recognize the type. LOL

I am open to what I don't know so if I've gotten horribly bad info, I'll own it.....but I don't mind challenging what we all "know" every once in a while.

The smart one, was the guy that pointed at his puzzy-butt and said, "look how brave he is" and rallied his friends!!! THAT guy was smart! LOL


This is what happens when you think too much....or the circuits aren't connected....but I'll go with the former....




Still trying to think up how to get sea water to power the world though....been working on that one for 30 yrs....it's tough! Stanley Meyers comes to mind right?....hmmmm, what do I know about dear ole Stanley??? LOL Him, Tesla, Steinmetz and others......all smarter than I am by a wide delta, thought it would work too, somehow!
 

Cathie G

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Boring thoughts.....be warned.

I spend 2+ hrs a day in the car....so I have lots of time to think. I do not use my phone unless I need to.....love/hate relationship with it like most here.

So I tend to read a bit in my downtime and I have gone to a lot of places so I was thinking this morning (in the snow) about Stonewall Jackson, yeah, that one & when we visited Jackson tomb with the kids 20 yrs ago .....and my own reading, I found that he was basically, a hypochondriac. He was under 40 years old yet had 12 different "issues" including cold feet and anxiety along with dyspepsia(upset tummy), rheumatism(joint issues) & others. If we focus on just those....what picture of the man emerges? Not very strong in character, right? Now transpose this with the story of how he came famous "for sitting astride his horse like a stonewall while facing overwhelming odds". That's the gist of the story....hang on to this for a sec.

Now let me switch subjects before I tie them together.

In life, there are do'ers and watchers. Have someone drop with a heart attack in a crowd of strangers and you'll see the difference. Have a thief run off with a purse at a grocery store and you'll see the difference. 99% of people by my own estimate, are watchers unless it's a close family member. It's no ones fault....most folks simply freeze, even if they want to do something, they cannot. I don't know why......I've never figured it out, but take it as pretty factual (not sure it would pass Mythbusters though)


Now let's bring this all together and see if I'm truly off my rocker, or it starts to make sense.

I propose that Jackson didn't sit because he was fearless at all......all his maladies to me, points to him being a "fraidy cat"....basically being forced into a terrifying situation and he did the only thing he could, he froze not as inspiration but because he was in shock!
So to me, he was not who history says he was, not by a long shot.....I recognize the type. LOL

I am open to what I don't know so if I've gotten horribly bad info, I'll own it.....but I don't mind challenging what we all "know" every once in a while.

The smart one, was the guy that pointed at his puzzy-butt and said, "look how brave he is" and rallied his friends!!! THAT guy was smart! LOL


This is what happens when you think too much....or the circuits aren't connected....but I'll go with the former....




Still trying to think up how to get sea water to power the world though....been working on that one for 30 yrs....it's tough! Stanley Meyers comes to mind right?....hmmmm, what do I know about dear ole Stanley??? LOL Him, Tesla, Steinmetz and others......all smarter than I am by a wide delta, thought it would work too, somehow!
I'm a watcher. I only weigh 89 pounds.😉 However there's more than one way to skin a cat.😊🤣
 

Tom

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I don't know nuthin' about no Stonewall Jackson, but I sure have seen EXACTLY what you are talking about with the do'ers and watchers.

I have literally had to shove watchers out of my way to get to the action. Breaking up dog fights, a dude on a film set seizing, a grossly obese woman collapsing in the park (It was a heart attack and she died), escaping emu or kangaroo... There have been so many examples. The frozen people often freeze right in the damn way.

Man I have seen this so many times over so many years, but I never sorted it out in my mind the way you did here. As I read your words, it gelled.

I recently learned my daughter is also a do'er. So was my mom. I don't know about my dad. Never saw one way or the other with him. I think my wife is a watcher. Unless she's mad. Then get out of her way!

Thank you for sharing your musings Jeff. I hope I get to meet you in person some day. That would be some entertaining conversation!
 

KarenSoCal

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I am usually a do'er, but I experienced the paralysis you speak of one time. I think it can be a product of seeing something so horrible that you literally can't move. It happened to me...I stood at the end of a 6ft leash, totally unable to move, while a pit bull disemboweled my little dog and killed him. The pit bull's owner was trying to pull her off my dog, but wasn't strong enough. I was able to speak to the owner, but my feet never moved. Eventually the owner did pull her off and away.

It's hard for me to admit this because I will always wonder if I could have made a difference in the outcome. Why didn't I pick up a rock? I just stood there, transfixed. My husband and another neighbor were also unable to react.

It was by far the most brutal event I have ever witnessed with my own eyes. I hope to never see something like it again. 🥺
 

TammyJ

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I am usually a do'er, but I experienced the paralysis you speak of one time. I think it can be a product of seeing something so horrible that you literally can't move. It happened to me...I stood at the end of a 6ft leash, totally unable to move, while a pit bull disemboweled my little dog and killed him. The pit bull's owner was trying to pull her off my dog, but wasn't strong enough. I was able to speak to the owner, but my feet never moved. Eventually the owner did pull her off and away.

It's hard for me to admit this because I will always wonder if I could have made a difference in the outcome. Why didn't I pick up a rock? I just stood there, transfixed. My husband and another neighbor were also unable to react.

It was by far the most brutal event I have ever witnessed with my own eyes. I hope to never see something like it again. 🥺
Wow. That's a rough one for sure. It's not just fear that freezes some people, but sudden extreme shock and horror. But talking about doers versus watchers, There are also those who both do and watch. They watch and take a video. That's what they do while they watch. I am a doer, in a certain category of incident, and a watcher in another.
 

Tom

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The next logical question is: Nature or nurture? Is there a genetic component to this, or is it learned behavior? Did I become this way from watching my Mom? I can remember as a child whenever there was a car accident, she'd drive right up to it, tell me, "Thomas, lock the doors..." and fling herself into immediate action to go help. She was a nurse. She never once sat back and thought about it. She just went immediately. Do I do the same thing because I learned that behavior from my mom, or do I do that same behavior because of the genetics passed down from my mom. Same question for my daughter. How many times has she witnessed me move into action instead of sitting back and "watching the movie"?
 

KarenSoCal

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The next logical question is: Nature or nurture? Is there a genetic component to this, Same question for my daughter. How many times has she witnessed me move into action instead of sitting back and "watching the movie"?
I have nothing to back this up, but I think nurture. As children, we watch our parents and siblings, the news, superhero movies, and may have a hero to idolize in our own families. It's natural to want to be like them.

But whether or not that child becomes a do'er is also influenced by his/her overall opinion of himself, and his level of self confidence that hopefully was instilled and encouraged by family and teachers. The person who is tentative in general life probably won't rush in when challenged, especially with danger involved.

I suspect Ava is a self confident young lady who is a leader, not a follower. She's just like her dad because she's been encouraged and told "you can do it!" I believe that is nurture in its best form. If a child is constantly told "you'll never amount to anything", or "don't even try...you're sure to fail", there's a good chance he'll believe it.

I can't help but wonder how many kids have been so discouraged re' their potential for a productive life. 🥺
 

PollyAda

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This ties in to the body's natural response to danger. Both reactions are stress responses to a perceived threat - fight, flight or freeze! Its physiological, so I don't think the rational part of the brain always gets a say, but I guess that depends on how each person perceives the situation in front of them. We might be hard wired to react the same way no matter what the perceived threat is, depending on what we've experienced in our lives.
 

jeff kushner

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I have nothing to back this up, but I think nurture. As children, we watch our parents and siblings, the news, superhero movies, and may have a hero to idolize in our own families. It's natural to want to be like them.
That is an interesting point of view/theory....and it well may be very valid...certainly makes sense to me. None of us, have anything other than our opinions K, yours are as good as anyone's!

When I read about Tom's Mom, I immediately thought "she never had a choice" and I'll elaborate in a sec.

I have always been observant of behavior....as K points out, that could well have been my upbringing. Mom was a psych major and Dad just knew everything so the "observation part" may have come from them. Not sure the theory carries through though when we add fam to the mix. I have 3 older sisters and one younger brother....we were all brought up together and there's 13 yrs btwn oldest/yougest......my oldest sister is also a do'er. 2 out of 5 kids...but then what about the other 3? Not an argument, just some background info.....I do think that you are on to something though...

I think we're all generally talking about only the folks who with no training of any type....and here was my thought when I was prepared to respond to Tom....

Whenever situations come to born do'ers, there's no choice.....I always thought it's hard-wired as P says, you do, that's all....you do whatever you need to...it's immediate and automatic.

Soldiers and Pro Paramedics are trained to respond and their training is very good most of the time, which we are all thankful for....but it's "trained in" to become 2nd nature to them. In Mom's case, I don't doubt that Mom was a Do'er long before she became a nurse Tom!
I say this b/c my ex of 25 yrs was a nurse and she only began to "do", after she became one at year 17 or so. Beforehand, she was a shy Catholic girl, straight from mommy and daddy and watched like everyone else! LOL

So I always thought it came naturally....either it's there or not.....but then I read K's observation and no I'm doubting my own long held conclusion. Especially when I apply it to Tom family/mom/daughter.....we're all fairly good judges of character here and I think we can safely assume those nuts fell right next to the appropriate tree. LOL It's supercool to see our kids show us solid stuff, who they are as a person stuff. Or, as I see it, the important stuff!


Here's another thought to add; It's never fun to be that guy, no matter how cool it sounds when Bruce Willis says it in the movies. Most of the time, it sucks, but you do b/c that's what you do....you just are compelled. I always thought it was superman taking over!
LOL
 

Tom

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I have nothing to back this up, but I think nurture. As children, we watch our parents and siblings, the news, superhero movies, and may have a hero to idolize in our own families. It's natural to want to be like them.
I agree, but if this is the case, why aren't more people do'ers? We are all watching the same movies. I definitely had a "superman" in my family. My uncle Danny. I've never looked up to anyone the way I looked up to that man.

You make some logical reasonable points, but then Jeff said this:
Whenever situations come to born do'ers, there's no choice.....I always thought it's hard-wired as P says, you do, that's all....you do whatever you need to...it's immediate and automatic.
This has been my observation too. There is no thought, no choice, just immediate action. Instant.

I see something similar with animal trainers. You are either born a trainer, or not. You either have that "feel" and sense of timing, or you don't. I can't teach it to people. I can show them technique, and refine things, but I can't teach anyone to train.


Here's another thought to add; It's never fun to be that guy, no matter how cool it sounds when Bruce Willis says it in the movies. Most of the time, it sucks, but you do b/c that's what you do....you just are compelled.
The above quote is very true. I've got the scars to prove it. Know how I know how to NOT get bit when breaking up a dog fight? Hard Knocks University man.
 

KarenSoCal

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There is no thought, no choice, just immediate action. Instant.
Hmmm, I now think I'm somewhere in between, because I have put some thought into whether I can improve the situation, or just be in the way. The thinking is very brief, and I usually get involved, but it's not automatic.

This brings to mind the man, many years ago, who crashed himself into his dog, who was just about to be run over by a train. The man knocked the dog out of the way, but the man's legs were both crushed by the train, and he lost them both.

When he was interviewed later, he said he never thought about it...he just launched himself toward his dog. Then he added that if he had thought about it, he would have done exactly what he did, and would do it again without hesitation.

I think it's safe to say he was a do'er.
 

jeff kushner

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Never been compelled with pets...those dogs would have fought till Tom stepped in! LOL Good for you though brother for taking the hit and I'm sure lowering the screaming from the kids, yours or otherwise!!

Yes, and the train would have a newly colored front end.....LOL Good thing that guy had come to terms with it though, can you imagine if he didn't and was angry at the pooch for "making him" lose his mobility? That would have been ugly!

I don't really notice driving he car or truck, but when I ride one of the bikes and I see a single long skid mark 100 feet long going into the woods.....it's obvious the motorcycle rider was a watcher.....can't tell you how many times I've heard; "it felt like I was just along for the ride"

Cool discussion....and it would be a pleasure to meet anyone from here Tom, well mostly! LOL

It's a good group...all grownups....rare to find!
 

Cathie G

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Hmmm, I now think I'm somewhere in between, because I have put some thought into whether I can improve the situation, or just be in the way. The thinking is very brief, and I usually get involved, but it's not automatic.

This brings to mind the man, many years ago, who crashed himself into his dog, who was just about to be run over by a train. The man knocked the dog out of the way, but the man's legs were both crushed by the train, and he lost them both.

When he was interviewed later, he said he never thought about it...he just launched himself toward his dog. Then he added that if he had thought about it, he would have done exactly what he did, and would do it again without hesitation.

I think it's safe to say he was a do'er.
Maybe I am a doer maybe not. This story brings to my mind the story of my little mini Rex QueSi. And how she saved my life probably. February 9th 2014 I was just sitting on the couch at 6am. She was a crazy little rabbit that actually liked being held in my arms. Most bunnies hate that. Sooo... to make a long story short I got up with her in my arms. My foot got caught up and I went flying with my little QueSi! in my arms. The only thing I had time to do was make sure I didn't land on her when my body hit the floor. I did fracture my knee cap but I didn't break my skull. To save QueSi! I stretched both arms out to place her in front of me safely on the floor. Yeah I didn't squish her. My head landed on my outstretched arm instead. I always knew she was God sent.🤗
 

KarenSoCal

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I did fracture my knee cap but I didn't break my skull. To save QueSi! I stretched both arms out to place her in front of me safely on the floor. Yeah I didn't squish her. My head landed on my outstretched arm instead. I always knew she was God sent.🤗
So many people trip over their pets! When I worked on a surgical floor at our hospital, sometimes it seemed like that was the only cause of falls.

My cat Sammy would sneak up on me and lay down on the floor only an inch away from my heels, and I would go to take a step, and do a "trying to stay upright" dance.

I never came down on his body with my foot, but I occasionally stepped on his tail.
 

Cathie G

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So many people trip over their pets! When I worked on a surgical floor at our hospital, sometimes it seemed like that was the only cause of falls.

My cat Sammy would sneak up on me and lay down on the floor only an inch away from my heels, and I would go to take a step, and do a "trying to stay upright" dance.

I never came down on his body with my foot, but I occasionally stepped on his tail.
She didn't cause the fall but if I hadn't been holding her I would have hit my head just as hard as what broke my knee cap. The way it happened I would have not been able to stop it and it was a split second decision. In trying to save her it saved me too. Instead of my head hitting the floor, my head landed on my outstretched arm. I couldn't have done it as well if she had not been making me cuddle her as usual. Razberri is a whole different story. She is not fixed. At certain times of the year I have to really! watch for a rabbit hanging around my feet like the plague. I'm so glad when she gets through that stuff. But these are true examples of instant action in a time of need. Maybe it's a test of what really motivates a person.
 
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