New/Unexpected Desert Tort Dad

[HoosierTort]

Don’t hibernate/brumate this year. High chance of it dying and it doesn’t need it.

 

[MoreCowbellAz]

Turn off that bulb ASAP. That is exactly the bulb we are talking about in the beginners mistakes thread you read. No cfl bulbs.

I didn’t see mention of that, thanks for the heads up. Question though: what’s the reasoning behind not using a UVB CFL bulb? Also it Seems everywhere I looked everyone’s insisting they need tons more light than what you describe. That’s great to know, just curious about that.

 

[Tom]

I didn’t see mention of that, thanks for the heads up. Question though: what’s the reasoning behind not using a UVB CFL bulb? Also it Seems everywhere I looked everyone’s insisting they need tons more light than what you describe. That’s great to know, just curious about that.

Some of those bulbs are known to cause eye damage in tortoises and other reptiles. We see it all the time here, and I see it in person on a regular basis. They are also not an effective UV source. Using them carries substantial risk of harm, with no benefit.

Lots of light during the day is good. LEDs or florescent tubes can deliver as much light as you want.

 

[MoreCowbellAz]

Sorry, another question. I was going to put the baby in a new larger enclosure tomorrow. Is it safe to use natural actual desert soil? Sounds silly to ask, for a desert tortoise, but better safe than sorry. I know sand isn’t good. And btw I’m talking real desert soil, not “yard” soil with fertilizers etc. I have a rental that butts up to actual raw desert and was gonna use that soil and make some hiding spots etc out of other natural types of things things.

 

[Yvonne G]

I think your baby should be kept indoors for the first two years, then acclimated slowly to living outside in his third year with you. For substrate I would use fine grade orchid bark. And I'd keep him in a closed chamber for those two years.

 

[Tom]

Sorry, another question. I was going to put the baby in a new larger enclosure tomorrow. Is it safe to use natural actual desert soil? Sounds silly to ask, for a desert tortoise, but better safe than sorry. I know sand isn’t good. And btw I’m talking real desert soil, not “yard” soil with fertilizers etc. I have a rental that butts up to actual raw desert and was gonna use that soil and make some hiding spots etc out of other natural types of things things.

I don't think its silly at all. The answer is: It depends on the composition of the "soil" you intend to use.

Here are my thoughts:

• Our enclosures are NOT the wild. Sure they walk around on this stuff all day in the wild, but they have billions of square miles of micro climates to choose from. Decades of experience have taught me that when we humans try to mimic the conditions we think exist in the wild (e.g. "desert"), it is not good for the animals involved. Instead, I've chosen to look at hundreds of cases of success and failure in captive enclosures, and try to make an educated guess about what produces the best results. Then I do experiments based on my educated guesses to get cold hard data. Cold hard data says that desert tortoises do best with moderate humidity on damp substrate with a dry-ish top layer. Dry desert soil and the overly dry conditions that are produced by using it indoors, isn't good for baby desert tortoises. Sounds odd, but we have to remember that in the wild the little babies dig into plant root balls or damp soil and do their best to avoid desert temperature and dryness extremes. Most of them don't survive. We want our babies to not only survive, but thrive. In side-by-side experiments with DT clutch mates I get growth rates two to three times faster in damp conditions than in "desert" dry conditions on the same amount of food. Now fast growth is NOT my goal. Good health is my goal. You tell me: If two groups of siblings are fed the exact same amounts of the exact same foods over a six month period and one group is two to three times larger at the end of six months, which group is healthier and thriving better?
• Most desert soil has a high sand content. This is a huge impaction risk. Not worth it to me in a captive environment.
• In my experience, damp coco coir works best for babies, and fine grade orchid bark works best once they hit about 3.5-4".
• Also keep in mind the massive size difference between a hatchling and an adult. Whats good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander. Adults can live with and survive things like less-than-ideal conditions, or the wrong substrate, or too little water, while babies cannot due to their smaller size and mass.
• Wetting that desert soil might make a muddy mess and it will be difficult to maintain enough moisture, but not too much. Hard to find the middle ground between wet and muddy, and dry and dusty with dirt from outside. With a 4 inch layer of orchid bark or coir, you can keep the lower layers more damp while the upper layers stay more dry, but not dry enough to be dusty. The moisture wicks up from the bottom better than it does in sandy desert soil, and this also allows the baby tortoise to dig down and create its own little microclimates for humidity. Let me be clear: I'm not saying that DTs need 80%+ tropical humidity like a sulcata baby would. I'm saying that single digit humidity is bad for them, often fatal, and moderate ambient humidity of 40-70% is beneficial to them. Offering a humid hide that is 80-100% humidity and allowing them to dig down into moist substrate is also beneficial, as evidenced by my survival rates and growth rates when compared to babies housed in drier conditions by people attempting to simulate their ideas of what "desert" conditions are.

As I said before, most of what you read about housing and caring for this species is wrong. People have had the wrong idea for decades and many of them either don't give it much thought or simply don't want to accept this new info. These people think that large numbers of babies not surviving is just normal and say things like: "Some of them just aren't meant to survive..." BS! ALL of them survive when housed and cared for correctly. That is not a coincidence. Its a direct result of understanding and meeting their biological needs. It took me nearly two decades of the status quo failure to step back, open my mind, look at many facts from around the globe, do growth experiments every year, and discover for myself what works and what doesn't. I stopped reading the books, talking to the "experts", asking vets, etc... Those people all say the same wrong things, and their advice simply does not work. Following 20 years of failure, I've had 10 years of success based on the principals and experiments I've been telling you about here. People all around the globe have been duplicating my techniques and getting the same positive results and nearly all of them are met with hostility, insults and arguments when they present the living evidence of what they've discovered, just as I have been. I don't want credit for this. I want a world of healthy tortoises and CB babies that survive.

 

[MoreCowbellAz]

Quick update - I made a new larger enclosure for him and filled it with coca fiber substrate. I assume that’s what everyone talks about, including above. Anyway, it was moist. Is it ok how it clumps on his legs and shell? Regular desert soil seems not as desirable as you all described above and in other posts, from a health perspective, but it didn’t clump at least. Am I ok? I’m worried I got the wrong coco substrate. It’s pretty fine and fluffy, not packed down or heavy.

 

[Tom]

Quick update - I made a new larger enclosure for him and filled it with coca fiber substrate. I assume that’s what everyone talks about, including above. Anyway, it was moist. Is it ok how it clumps on his legs and shell? Regular desert soil seems not as desirable as you all described above and in other posts, from a health perspective, but it didn’t clump at least. Am I ok? I’m worried I got the wrong coco substrate. It’s pretty fine and fluffy, not packed down or heavy.

You need it to be damp enough to hold its shape, and then hand pack it down firmly. Keep hand packing it daily and after about two weeks it will settle in nicely. The mess is why I don't like it for older, larger tortoises.

 

[MoreCowbellAz]

Continuing to make progress here. You’re right the coco substrate packs down a bit nicely with some moisture. He’s walking much more “on” it than “in” it. Last night he made his own burrow for the night , first time for that. Tonight he’s back in the hide I made for him at the very beginning. All seems well on that front.

Been experimenting with lighting so I can keep him from hibernating. He’s got lots of ambient light pretty much all day, and temps are still warm, and he’s been getting outdoor sunshine for the UV, so my main focus has been lengthening the day as Tom advised. I have a reflector lamp and also a regular lamp both on the timer set to take over later in the day and stays on until 8 pm. So I’m hoping to the tort it appears the day is like 6:30am to 8pm. That about right?

Here’s my other question for today: i got a few different LED bulbs for the reflector lamp and I’m not sure how bright it needs to be or if it needs to be a certain color, or if it’s a preference thing? Remember this is just for light, not UV or heat. I got a “daylight” colored bulb emulating a regular 75w lightbulb and it’s very fluorescent looking, very white. And I got a LED flood emulating a 65w flood, also “daylight” colored. Wondering if it’s better to have a warmer or more yellow color. Whatever works, I just want to keep him from hibernating. So as a place to start I have two “75w” LED bulbs going just a few feet over the enclosure. Seems like plenty of light but maybe it’s too harsh with that fluorescent color?

I’ll post some pics tomorrrow. I really appreciate everyone’s help, I’m very grateful. We seem to be making our way.

 

[MoreCowbellAz]

I forgot to mention, I didn’t use a fluorescent tube because I don’t yet have a fixture for that type of light, that’s why I was trying to use my reflector type light plus another lamp. I just got the bulbs from Home Depot. Both are set like 4 ft from the enclosure so the light spreads out pretty evenly. Kind of how daytime would be I would think. I’m sure it’s not perfect, but I hope I’m in the ballpark?

 

[MoreCowbellAz]

I thought I'd share with everyone, been tweaking his habitat, for scale this is 45x20 inches. (remember, he's a little one, shell is about 1.5"). I wrapped cardboard around the base so he can't see through it. Even though this room is very well lit a lot of ambient sunlight, after some experimenting I went ahead and got a MVB on the left for basking/UV/light, and on the right is a standard LED for light, both on a timer to run 7:30am-7:30pm. Plenty of light since I don't want him to hibernate. Coco substrate. That thing on the right is a piece of broken pottery, doesn't show up too well in the pic but it's concave and leaning on a river rock, he's got it dug out underneath and that's his favorite sleeping spot. The flat rock second from the left is actually another smaller hide bit I've yet to see him use it. That longish looking thing is a piece of dried mesquite from the yard. The enclosure looks darker on the right than it really is, plus it was really overcast this morning and the sun wasn't really out yet.

I've been giving him daily soaks. Seems to be active, eating and drinking.

The second to the last pic is him basking, in the flat pancake position. LOL

If anyone has input, I'm all ears. Otherwise, enjoy the pics!

 

[Yvonne G]

It's important for him to have a spot where he can sit and absorb heat to warm his inner core to upwards of 80F degrees. Food doesn't digest any cooler than that so they don't eat.

 

[MoreCowbellAz]

Yep it's pretty darn warm here most of the year, but even indoors where I have him right now he's got good temps I believe. His "hot " spot reads at about 97-101 depending on where I point the beam (I have one of those infrared guns for other uses), and on the other side of the enclosure it's in the mid to upper 80's. Cooler overnight and in the mornings of course.