Newbie :) Is my sulcata beginning to pyramid?

[vanessammm]

I've had my Sulcata for about 4 months now and hes almost 1 year old. My boyfriend thinks he is beginning to pyramid, I dont think so. We feed him about 80% grasses(Zoo med grassland tortoise pellets, which we mix with applejuice) and then the greens. We always give him the Herptivite and Calcium/Vit D powders. No phosphorus. He has a large amount of water in his enclosure and all the proper heat. Thanks!

Picture here:

 

[Meg90]

I think that He does look like he is starting to pyramid.....

 

[RTfanatic]

One of the recent theories of things contributing to pyramiding is humidity. Make sure your substrate is regularly moistened.

 

[vanessammm]

One of the recent theories of things contributing to pyramiding is humidity. Make sure your substrate is regularly moistened.

 

[tortoisenerd]

What is the humidity in your enclosure? As the other members are eluding to, there is recent research showing pyramiding in torts such as Sulcatas may be greatly influenced by the use of humid burrows. Trying to re-create a humid burrowing environment (such as a hide area) can help with that. Yes, it looks like your tort is starting to pyramid. There are other known causes besides humidity, such as diet, etc. I want to refer the diet question/issue over to someone experienced with Sulcatas.

Here's what is in the pellets if it's helpful to you all:

Suncured Oat Hay, Suncured Timothy Hay, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Whole Ground Wheat, Escarole, Endive, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Yeast Culture, Dandelion Greens (dried), Sodium Bicarbonate, Soy Lecithin, Direct-Fed Microorganisms (heat stable cultures of Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Bifidobacterium bifidum, Enterococcus faecium, Aspergillus oryzae), Yeast Extract, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Garlic Extract, Anise Extract, Cassia Extract (Chinese), Ginger Extract, Horseradish Extract, Juniper Extract, Natural Flavoring, Marigold (petal extract), Yucca schidigera (whole plant powder), L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of stabilized Vitamin C), Zinc Methionine Complex, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin E Supplement, Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract, Ascorbic Acid, Citric Acid, Lecithin, Silicon Dioxide, Choline Chloride, Vitamin A Supplement (Retinyl Acetate), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate (source of Vitamin B5), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Biotin, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Tribasic Copper Chloride, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite.

Crude Protein (Min) 9.0% Crude Fat (Min) 2.0% Crude Fiber (Max) 26.0% Moisture (Max) 13.0% Ash (Max) 10.0% Calcium (Min) 0.9% Calcium (Max) 1.3% Phosphorus (Min) 0.4% Sodium (Max) 0.3%

I don't have an opinion on the pellets but I disagree that they should be soaked in apple juice as that just adds sugar. Softening them with water (warmed or microwaved) seems typical around here for those who use a pelleted food as part of their tort's diet.

 

[vanessammm]

What is the humidity in your enclosure? As the other members are eluding to, there is recent research showing pyramiding in torts such as Sulcatas may be greatly influenced by the use of humid burrows. Trying to re-create a humid burrowing environment (such as a hide area) can help with that. Yes, it looks like your tort is starting to pyramid. There are other known causes besides humidity, such as diet, etc. I want to refer the diet question/issue over to someone experienced with Sulcatas.

Here's what is in the pellets if it's helpful to you all:

Suncured Oat Hay, Suncured Timothy Hay, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Whole Ground Wheat, Escarole, Endive, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Yeast Culture, Dandelion Greens (dried), Sodium Bicarbonate, Soy Lecithin, Direct-Fed Microorganisms (heat stable cultures of Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Bifidobacterium bifidum, Enterococcus faecium, Aspergillus oryzae), Yeast Extract, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Garlic Extract, Anise Extract, Cassia Extract (Chinese), Ginger Extract, Horseradish Extract, Juniper Extract, Natural Flavoring, Marigold (petal extract), Yucca schidigera (whole plant powder), L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of stabilized Vitamin C), Zinc Methionine Complex, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin E Supplement, Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract, Ascorbic Acid, Citric Acid, Lecithin, Silicon Dioxide, Choline Chloride, Vitamin A Supplement (Retinyl Acetate), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate (source of Vitamin B5), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Biotin, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Tribasic Copper Chloride, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite.

Crude Protein (Min) 9.0% Crude Fat (Min) 2.0% Crude Fiber (Max) 26.0% Moisture (Max) 13.0% Ash (Max) 10.0% Calcium (Min) 0.9% Calcium (Max) 1.3% Phosphorus (Min) 0.4% Sodium (Max) 0.3%

I don't have an opinion on the pellets but I disagree that they should be soaked in apple juice as that just adds sugar. Softening them with water (warmed or microwaved) seems typical around here for those who use a pelleted food as part of their tort's diet.

 

[vanessammm]

What exactly is a 'hide area'? Also, to add humidity could i just spray his substrate with a water bottle every day? How exactly could I add some humidity?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

You want to create humidity at the substrate level. For starters you have him on a crappy substrate. So the first thing I would do would be to change out the substrate and put him on something like eco earth and sand. Mix that 50/50 then you would keep it humid by pouring water over the substrate regularly. He needs a hide, that's some place for him to sleep in like a half log or a box with a hole cut in it for an entrance. It looks to me like you haven't done too much reading up on his care. Here's a couple of links please read them for the health of your baby...he needs a better food, humidity, good UVB lights and exercise to stop that pyramiding...

http://africantortoise.com/
http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/sulcatacare.htm

 

[Yvonne G]

Depending upon what kind of medium you are using for the substrate, you would pour a pitcherful of water on it and mix it all up with your hands. You want to end up with something that is quite damp and will hold its shape when you squeeze a handful together. The lights will quickly dry out the top layer, but it will stay moist underneath. If you just want to make a humid hide, you would hot-glue-gun a sponge to the ceiling of his hiding place and keep the sponge wet.

As for what you feed your little guy: I like to place a mound of greens on the feeding station then put a small amount of the moistened tortoise pellets on top of the pile. You would use the pellets as a supplement, not as the main food source. And moistening with apple juice is good to get them started eating the pellets, but once they develop a taste for the pellets, you should switch out the apple juice for just plain old water.

Your picture shows a really cute little sulcata. I love him.

Yvonne

I just re-read your post. A "hide area" is a place where the tortoise can go inside something and be out of sight of predators. Most people use a half-log purchased at any pet store. Or those edible guinnea pig houses are good too.

 

[vanessammm]

You want to create humidity at the substrate level. For starters you have him on a crappy substrate. So the first thing I would do would be to change out the substrate and put him on something like eco earth and sand. Mix that 50/50 then you would keep it humid by pouring water over the substrate regularly. He needs a hide, that's some place for him to sleep in like a half log or a box with a hole cut in it for an entrance. It looks to me like you haven't done too much reading up on his care. Here's a couple of links please read them for the health of your baby...he needs a better food, humidity, good UVB lights and exercise to stop that pyramiding...

http://africantortoise.com/
http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/sulcatacare.htm

Haha he is on a mixture of ecoearth and sand. I didnt use the log form of ecoearth I used to loose form, thats why it may not look as wet. I read quite a few books on sulcatas and they all said his diet needs to be at least 75% grass and 25% greens, which is what I am doing. I have him under UVB lighting as well as a ceramic since our house is a little cold and he comes out daily for some exercise so really its just the humidity I need to fix, thanks for helping!

---

Depending upon what kind of medium you are using for the substrate, you would pour a pitcherful of water on it and mix it all up with your hands. You want to end up with something that is quite damp and will hold its shape when you squeeze a handful together. The lights will quickly dry out the top layer, but it will stay moist underneath. If you just want to make a humid hide, you would hot-glue-gun a sponge to the ceiling of his hiding place and keep the sponge wet.

As for what you feed your little guy: I like to place a mound of greens on the feeding station then put a small amount of the moistened tortoise pellets on top of the pile. You would use the pellets as a supplement, not as the main food source. And moistening with apple juice is good to get them started eating the pellets, but once they develop a taste for the pellets, you should switch out the apple juice for just plain old water.

Your picture shows a really cute little sulcata. I love him.

Yvonne

I just re-read your post. A "hide area" is a place where the tortoise can go inside something and be out of sight of predators. Most people use a half-log purchased at any pet store. Or those edible guinnea pig houses are good too.

Thanks so much for replying! So He is on a 50/50 mix of play sand and ecoearth. I never soaked the substrate because I was never told to and every website I checked was just back and forth and back and forth. I'm so glad I found this site and Im going to use it for years to come! As for the sponge, should I use a certain type, like a kitchen sponge or a sea sponge like used for painting (brand new of course) So what should I use for his main food source? I've read over and over that the diet needs to be 70-75% grass and 20-25% greens and that a high protein diet would be bad for him so I have been trying to avoid that. But it seems this might not be the case?

And thanks for the compliment! I thought he was the cutest of the hatchlings and I was very adamant that I wanted him. His name is Bowser and hes my beautiful baby. I love him too.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I apologize for reading that your care was less then required. I misunderstood when you said you feed him pellets, that you feed him pellets. While I do agree that a commercially pelleted food product is a good supplement, I don't believe pellets are good as the main source of nutrition.
Also he would greatly appreciate it if you would provide him with a small safe place to sleep in. I have different caves and boxes for my small tortoises to sleep in. Every one of them will go into what he considers his own house to sleep. It makes them feel safe and secure and I think that as well as fixing your humidity you should create a hide for your baby...here is a picture of one of my tort tables and how it is set up for small tortoises.
I have a large Sulcata in an outside shed and even he has a sleeping box and he will go into his box every evening at 7 pm. He does it every night you can set your watch by it. They really like sleeping in a small space where they can feel secure...HTH

 

[vanessammm]

I apologize for reading that your care was less then required. I misunderstood when you said you feed him pellets, that you feed him pellets. While I do agree that a commercially pelleted food product is a good supplement, I don't believe pellets are good as the main source of nutrition.
Also he would greatly appreciate it if you would provide him with a small safe place to sleep in. I have different caves and boxes for my small tortoises to sleep in. Every one of them will go into what he considers his own house to sleep. It makes them feel safe and secure and I think that as well as fixing your humidity you should create a hide for your baby...here is a picture of one of my tort tables and how it is set up for small tortoises.
I have a large Sulcata in an outside shed and even he has a sleeping box and he will go into his box every evening at 7 pm. He does it every night you can set your watch by it. They really like sleeping in a small space where they can feel secure...HTH

I will definitely look for a little hide area for him then. When I first got him I looked for some different logs he could hide under but couldnt find any that he fit under. I will go try to find a good one today. I will post pictures tonight of his updated house thanks for the help!

 

[Yvonne G]

Thanks so much for replying! So He is on a 50/50 mix of play sand and ecoearth. I never soaked the substrate because I was never told to and every website I checked was just back and forth and back and forth. I'm so glad I found this site and Im going to use it for years to come! As for the sponge, should I use a certain type, like a kitchen sponge or a sea sponge like used for painting (brand new of course) So what should I use for his main food source? I've read over and over that the diet needs to be 70-75% grass and 20-25% greens and that a high protein diet would be bad for him so I have been trying to avoid that. But it seems this might not be the case?

And thanks for the compliment! I thought he was the cutest of the hatchlings and I was very adamant that I wanted him. His name is Bowser and hes my beautiful baby. I love him too.

Since you DO have him on the ecoearth/playsand, I wouldn't worry about a humid hide. He still needs a hiding place, but if you wet the substrate like I advised you in a previous post he won't need the sponge. That's the easiest way to provide humidity for him. As for feeding, most of the info you receive about sulcatas is for an older tortoise. Your little baby won't eat grass or hay just yet. I like to use the Spring Mix for my little ones. Spring Mix is a packaged salad mixture that is sold in the produce section of your grocery store. I just feed it as is, but my sister picks weeds from her yard and adds them to the mixture. Don't worry about "protein." When they tell you to avoid protein they generally are talking about animal protein. The protein in your Spring Mix is just fine for a little sulcata.

Yvonne

 

[Meg90]

Edible logz

That is what is recommended for hatchlings. I have two of them. They are much more "domed" than the wooden logs. Cheaper too...I get mine at walmart for like 3.28 or something. Much better than 5.50$ and you don't have to worry about it not being high enough for him to fit under. (i had the same problem with my adult greek)

Glad you found the site! The wealth of knowledge here is almost overwhelming!

How big is your hatchling btw? The way i measure my tort is by putting a piece of paper on the floor, with one edge touching the wall, and then placing your baby on the paper, with the front of his shell touching the wall as well, and then make a mark at the back edge of the shell on the paper. Then just measure the length from the wall-edge to the mark. Or, just place him on a ruler, since he's so little!

He does have only alittle pyramiding. Since you caught it so early, he still has VERY good potential for a smooth shell.

 

[vanessammm]

Thanks so much for replying! So He is on a 50/50 mix of play sand and ecoearth. I never soaked the substrate because I was never told to and every website I checked was just back and forth and back and forth. I'm so glad I found this site and Im going to use it for years to come! As for the sponge, should I use a certain type, like a kitchen sponge or a sea sponge like used for painting (brand new of course) So what should I use for his main food source? I've read over and over that the diet needs to be 70-75% grass and 20-25% greens and that a high protein diet would be bad for him so I have been trying to avoid that. But it seems this might not be the case?

And thanks for the compliment! I thought he was the cutest of the hatchlings and I was very adamant that I wanted him. His name is Bowser and hes my beautiful baby. I love him too.

Since you DO have him on the ecoearth/playsand, I wouldn't worry about a humid hide. He still needs a hiding place, but if you wet the substrate like I advised you in a previous post he won't need the sponge. That's the easiest way to provide humidity for him. As for feeding, most of the info you receive about sulcatas is for an older tortoise. Your little baby won't eat grass or hay just yet. I like to use the Spring Mix for my little ones. Spring Mix is a packaged salad mixture that is sold in the produce section of your grocery store. I just feed it as is, but my sister picks weeds from her yard and adds them to the mixture. Don't worry about "protein." When they tell you to avoid protein they generally are talking about animal protein. The protein in your Spring Mix is just fine for a little sulcata.

Yvonne

So I fixed up his little house and I think he likes it a lot more already. He seems very content. I was checking out your website that is in your signature and i saw that you live in Clovis! I live in Visalia! haha, I fed him when I redid his enclosure and I used the mixture that I soaked him in (a jar of baby food - carrots and some water) to moisten his pellets. Is this okay? He is very into eating his food right now, I think he really likes the added carrot taste. And here are some pictures of his enclosure as it is. I got the log thing for him but it seems way too long for the size of his tank so I was thinking of cutting it in half? Do you think I should do that? Any other ideas suggestions for his enclosure? I appreciate all the help I can get!

---

Edible logz

That is what is recommended for hatchlings. I have two of them. They are much more "domed" than the wooden logs. Cheaper too...I get mine at walmart for like 3.28 or something. Much better than 5.50$ and you don't have to worry about it not being high enough for him to fit under. (i had the same problem with my adult greek)

Glad you found the site! The wealth of knowledge here is almost overwhelming!

How big is your hatchling btw? The way i measure my tort is by putting a piece of paper on the floor, with one edge touching the wall, and then placing your baby on the paper, with the front of his shell touching the wall as well, and then make a mark at the back edge of the shell on the paper. Then just measure the length from the wall-edge to the mark. Or, just place him on a ruler, since he's so little!

He does have only alittle pyramiding. Since you caught it so early, he still has VERY good potential for a smooth shell.

Bowser is 3 inches long and then he's a little over 2 inches tall. I definitely going to check out that edible log thing. So cheap.. Do you think it would be okay if he actually managed to eat a chunk of it though?

 

[Yvonne G]

You moistened his food pellets with the baby food mixture? Yes, that would be ok. Glad to have another Central Valleyite here on the forum. If you're ever up Fresno-way, give me a call. I always like to give "the tour."

Yvonne

---

The half-log doesn't look too big for the tank. I would suggest that you wrap the outside of the glass with paper of some sort. They don't understand why they can't walk through the glass and it sometimes causes stress.

 

[vanessammm]

You moistened his food pellets with the baby food mixture? Yes, that would be ok. Glad to have another Central Valleyite here on the forum. If you're ever up Fresno-way, give me a call. I always like to give "the tour."

Yvonne

---

The half-log doesn't look too big for the tank. I would suggest that you wrap the outside of the glass with paper of some sort. They don't understand why they can't walk through the glass and it sometimes causes stress.

---

It that why the table enclosures are more popular than the glass enclosures? I was wondering about that. Bowser is very alert to the things going on outside of his enclosure, He pays very good attention and is always checking it out.

 

[Yvonne G]

No, the tables are more popular over glass because you can get a temperature gradient in the tort table. You strive for a warmer side and a cooler (not really cool, but not so warm) side. Its hard to get that with an aquarium.

Yvonne

 

[nrfitchett4]

I apologize for reading that your care was less then required. I misunderstood when you said you feed him pellets, that you feed him pellets. While I do agree that a commercially pelleted food product is a good supplement, I don't believe pellets are good as the main source of nutrition.
Also he would greatly appreciate it if you would provide him with a small safe place to sleep in. I have different caves and boxes for my small tortoises to sleep in. Every one of them will go into what he considers his own house to sleep. It makes them feel safe and secure and I think that as well as fixing your humidity you should create a hide for your baby...here is a picture of one of my tort tables and how it is set up for small tortoises.
I have a large Sulcata in an outside shed and even he has a sleeping box and he will go into his box every evening at 7 pm. He does it every night you can set your watch by it. They really like sleeping in a small space where they can feel secure...HTH

I will definitely look for a little hide area for him then. When I first got him I looked for some different logs he could hide under but couldnt find any that he fit under. I will go try to find a good one today. I will post pictures tonight of his updated house thanks for the help!

reptiledirect.com has quite a selection of hides to choose from. Mine enjoys the half log cut to fit in a corner. She has made a small burrow at the back of one and that is where she sleeps and naps.

 

[maevamichelle]

When I first bought my little Leopard hatchling, I had him in a like Travel cage that was plastic and bought it at the pet show I got him at. He spent prolly 4 days in that while I got his tort table set up, and for the first 2 days he was content, then he just walked back and forth rubbing his little face against the side. I used to own lizards and ppl called it cage rub. Eventually their noses would rub off in extreme cases that I saw on websites, etc... I'm sure it stressed him out. In his tort table he once in a while tries to climb the sides lately but no rubbing his little face on the sides at least hehe.