Off topic: Experts: Humid vs. Dry

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jacqui

Wanna be raiser of Lemon Drop tortoises
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
39,793
Location (City and/or State)
A Land Far Away...
I'm out, again. It seemed as if TFO had 'matured' a little since my last departure but I stand corrected. And, I know, no loss...
About twice a year we have to go through this stuff. :(
 

zenoandthetortoise

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2013
Messages
420
I'm out, again. It seemed as if TFO had 'matured' a little since my last departure but I stand corrected. And, I know, no loss...

It's a bummer, isn't it? I previously vacated the forum for similar reasons and was about to again, but upon reflection it seems kind of silly to let one ranting member dictate participation. Particularly when they have failed to provide evidence or even coherence when questioned.
I've not read many of your posts, but the ones I've read are interesting. Here's hoping you stick around.

There's nothing wrong with the 'new Russian from Petco' contingent, nor the 'check out my cute pictures' crew. All good, all have a place. It'd also be cool if there was more technical depth for those so inclined.

Cheers
 

Abdulla6169

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
6,231
Location (City and/or State)
Dubai/New York
Hey guys. Be calm. Remember these wise words:

"I am calmly resisting the fact you suck,
I am not going to insult you, cause I don't give a ****. "

Please. Just Argue. Don't try to insult or humiliate each other. Always be kind. And remember, all of this is just words typed into a keyboard.
Bye & Have a nice day,
Abdulla

Edit- I don't mean to insult anyone or offend anyone. I just want you all to be happy and use TFO!
:D
 

zenoandthetortoise

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2013
Messages
420
Hey guys. Be calm. Remember these wise words:

"I am calmly resisting the fact you suck,
I am not going to insult you, cause I don't give a ****. "

Please. Just Argue. Don't try to insult or humiliate each other. Always be kind. And remember, all of this is just words typed into a keyboard.
Bye & Have a nice day,
Abdulla

Edit- I don't mean to insult anyone or offend anyone. I just want you all to be happy and use TFO!
:D

Wise words. And the makings of some truly awesome t-shirts! Especially the first one.
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
90,785
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
I'm out, again. It seemed as if TFO had 'matured' a little since my last departure but I stand corrected. And, I know, no loss...

Why do you allow one or two people arguing in a thread determine whether you stay or leave the Forum? Just don't read that thread. They don't comprise the whole forum, and overall, I think we're a pretty good place to be.
 

HLogic

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
May 31, 2010
Messages
1,034
Location (City and/or State)
Florida, USA
Why do you allow one or two people arguing in a thread determine whether you stay or leave the Forum? Just don't read that thread. They don't comprise the whole forum, and overall, I think we're a pretty good place to be.

That has little if anything to do with it Yvonne. I let that one die on the vine as I have little inclination to spend the time & effort necessary to put a cogent coherent reply to it and then convolve it to something acceptable in today's mamby pamby my feelings are hurt vernacular. I am unable to inject random claims in someone else's quotes either. I refuse to enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed person... adieu, ciao & hasta la vista!
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
42,210
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
I agree with Yvonne. Although I think some threads could be left to stand and continue in the manner it is headed, it wouldn't really be the forum it is, if all the name calling and disrespecting of people was allowed. Seriously, we don't need a forum to learn that. We need this forum for all the people out there that have or want a tortoise and needs a place they can go to get the truth about how to really care for them. Some members do get overly passionate and that does get things stirred up, but, does that mean you should leave the forum because of a few that can't play and argue respectfully? Are you on this forum for them, or to help the tortoises and the people owning them?
Besides, like Jacqui said. This always happens twice a year. Spring and Fall, you can bet on it.
 

naturalman91

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Messages
2,015
Location (City and/or State)
Medford Oregon
This always happens twice a year. Spring and Fall, you can bet on it.

spring and fall because they're getting ready to go outside or inside and people argue about how it should be? i've been reading this thread but decided not to get into it i had to ask this question tho
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
42,210
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
spring and fall because they're getting ready to go outside or inside and people argue about how it should be? i've been reading this thread but decided not to get into it i had to ask this question tho
I don't know why. I always figured spring time, because they are all sick and tired of the winter weathers, cabin fever. Fall because they are all mad about the winter weathers coming and getting cabin fever:D
 

Abdulla6169

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
6,231
Location (City and/or State)
Dubai/New York
I don't know why. I always figured spring time, because they are all sick and tired of the winter weathers, cabin fever. Fall because they are all mad about the winter weathers coming and getting cabin fever:D
I think because in spring everyone talks about tortoises (since the weather becomes better), and in fall it's important to keep your tort safe in the winter...
 

Kapidolo Farms

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
5,126
Location (City and/or State)
South of Southern California, but not Mexico
Umm, did I miss something? I just read a bunch of gobbledygook and not one mention of humidity.

I recently bought some neonate Egyptians. Their past keeper had been keeping them on a totally dry substrate (plastic box bottom). They got sun everyday, and wet food one day (fresh cut weeds) allowed to dry which was the following day's food. At an expressed one year of age they were still very small (less than 15 grams). A very sparse and dry technique.

I put them on fine orchid bark about one inch deep (with standing water about 1/8 to 1/4 inch deep under the bark, and a large pile of loose spagnhum moss that wicks water up from the bark. They are already 30% heavier in less than a month, now 22 grams each. they sleep during the day with there head pushed into the moss and at night hunkered down in the bark.

I'd say they had been chronically dehydrated.

I have been hatching out numerous pancakes over the past year, they had all started to develop what could be seen as reverse pyramiding, each scute was depressed/impressed. The most recent hatchling, now a few month old has been kept as I describe for the Egyptians with the exception t has an all the time water tray (the egyptians get soaked daily). The pancake will spend a few hours in the water tray, with his head half of body on a small bit of slate (black and it gets hot) and with his tail body half in the water. Same diet as the others, but the shell is more 'normal looking'.

I recently got into a house with a yard, grass with weeds etc. In making some vegetable planter beds I removed some grass squares (sod more or less) and planted them in shallow planters and put them in with my adult pancakes. Its crazy how much the pancakes all of a sudden don't spend the day in their retreats, but sit on the grass in full view. They don't care that I walk by etc. I water the grass daily as the roots now only have an inch or so of soil. It's very mist on the sod. They look like cats on cardboard (if you have cats you get it, if you don't, get a cat)

So I vote for higher humidity. I think it makes a heck of a big difference.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

mike taylor

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Messages
13,422
I would like the names of the experts please . Plus the school you went to and the degree or equivalent that you have to make any one person a expert . I must be naive but I thought we were all hobbyist helping each other out. With humidity you don't have to pour it on all day everyday . I let my humidity fall off later in the day . My tortoises will hide out in their little house then come back out later in the day . Don't ask me why I don't know why the temperature didn't change . My two year old sulcata has no humidifier that runs all the time . But in saying that I do have one but if I remember I fill it . One more thing in Houston Texas it is humid . What people need to do is get a starting point and try things . Tom lives in a dryer climate so he adds humidity . In Florida its a wetter climate so you may have to use dehumidifier . Nothing on this forum is in stone . Take the points that works for one person and twist and tweak it till it works for you .
 

Zeko

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
302
Fascinating stuff, though rather confusing for those of us without the experience to be sure which side of this discussion is likely to be correct.


This is exactly the problem with people being allowed to give their opinions without any actual understanding on the topic, or experience. @Tom has done us all a great service by making his care sheets, with PROOF of his methods working. I also have used his methods on numerous tortoises and they all continue to grow perfectly smooth, to which I have documented PROOF as well.

All I can say is do your research on the individual people giving advice. Ask to see their tortoises they raised using whatever belief, method, witchcraft, they may have. Many people here do not even raise their own tortoises. They simply adopt or look after already grown ones, which can suffer or adapt (Look up the tortoises named Lucky) through much more diverse environments than a growing hatchling or herd.

The admins (Josh specifically) have already been notified of these kinds of issues and the negative direction this forum is heading in regards to advice and care. From the sounds of it, changes are coming. Everyone's opinion has a place on this forum, however there are different sections or posts that their opinion are more relevant in.

Good luck,
Brad
 
Last edited:

Turtlepete

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2014
Messages
972
Location (City and/or State)
South Florida
This is exactly the problem with people being allowed to give their opinions without any actual understanding on the topic, or experience.

I have no interest nor patience for the amount of arguing that seems like a daily event on this forum, but the idea you seem to be presenting here is alarming. Prevention of members being "allowed" to give their opinion is just absolutely absurd. You want prevention of sharing your opinion unless you have the prerequisites deemed appropriate? Who will decide on these qualifications? If we are only going to allow sharing by "experienced" keepers then a large majority of this forum is going to be excluded from most discussions that aren't asking how cute a picture of someones tortoise is. I understand the problem of members acting as if their opinion is law when they have absolutely no real experience in the topic…It is a problem indeed and a frustrating one. But I see no reason for anything to be done as far as being "allowed" to give an opinion. The kind of forum that would put in place a rule like that is simply not one I have any desire to be a part of.

Applying common sense to advice given to you and "opinions" presented to you is an integral part of any learning process. There is always going to be the person on a podium telling everyone how things should be done without a half-*** clue what they are talking about, and unfortunately they are a part of society which we simply must deal with and go on happily with our lives. But if people don't have enough common sense to take what that person is taking with a grain of salt, then we can't expect them to ever have a firm understanding of any aspect of husbandry.

IMHO….
I suggest everyone avoid from making any thread title containing the word "expert". They seem to be the biggest bickering-fests, since certain individuals feel the need to continually redefine and challenge the meaning of "expert".
 
Last edited:

mike taylor

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Messages
13,422
Like I said on the other post . I would like the names of the experts here . The school, phd or any other thing that makes anyone person an experts here . This is a bundle of information made by different keepers. What works for one may need to be tweaked to work for you . There is no one way layed out to follow . Take the information add a little common sense and run with it .
 

Tidgy's Dad

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2015
Messages
48,205
Location (City and/or State)
Fes, Morocco
One more thing my reptilian friends aren't a hobby. They are more like my kids . I've been keeping reptilians for longer than I can remember . If I didn't have any I don't know what I would do . Is keeping dogs or cats a hobby? Just saying .
My Tidgy IS our child, my wife and I can't have kids and though Tidge was an accidental rescue tortoise, she is a surrogate daughter to us, certainly not a hobby, (though I am not being totally anthropomorphic here, we keep her in tortoise conditions,not human ones)
As for humidity, living fairly close to her natural birth-place helps very much, we live in the seasonal variations of temperature and humidity, though I accept it is still somewhat different in the wild to her current artificial environment.
I personally ensure she has a couple of weekly soaks, more when it's crazy hot, and showers too in high summer, as well as constant access to water of course. I think a level of humidity is necessary, but am uncertain as to the correct or exact percentage.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
57,246
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Where did Sulcata come into play for THIS thread ?

Hahahaaaa. This ENTIRE thread and discussion was about raising sulcatas smoothly with or without humidity. The reason for continued discussion is that YOU are offering advice on a species that you have no experience with one way or another.

No need for any rudeness, insults, smart Alec comments, or any hostility at all, from anyone involved in this discussion. My preference would be for people lacking experience with any given species to not give specific advice about that species. Since this is a free country and everyone is allowed to express their opinion on this forum, I (we) can only advise readers when someone (you, in this case) has no experience with the species they are offering advice on.

When I start offering advice on manouria, Egyptian tortoises, spider tortoises or hinge backs, I invite you and everyone else to tell our readers that I have no experience with these species and have no idea what any given set of temperatures or humidity will produce for them. I also hope that when that day comes that you will be as polite and tolerant with me as I have been with you since you started doing this.

May I extend an offer to you as a demonstrate good will? I would like to give you a free sulcata hatchling, properly started and hand delivered to your door for you, so that you can raise it whatever way you think is best. I only ask that you share the whole experience here on the forum. Tell us what all the enclosure temperatures, humidity, and other parameters are and give us regular updates on the growth and health of your tortoise. If the eventual adult size and temperament of the sulcata species prevents you from doing this, I will extend the offer that you can return the tortoise to me at any time you decide it is getting too big or destructive. I offer this because I and several others here know what your results will be because we have first hand experience. We just have to show you now...
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
57,246
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
1) It is not always necessary to have experience to give advice. I have never stuck my head in an oven, but I would advise anyone not to do so. Reading can give one a lot of information, I have read a lot about pre-Etruscan pottery and believe I can talk with authority on the subject but I've never actually owned any.

But wouldn't someone who had stuck their head in an oven hundreds of times, say an experienced oven repair man for example, be more qualified to give advice about the inner workings of an oven than someone who has only ever seen pictures of ovens, but never so much as even used one?

And wouldn't you want to point out that the person who had never even used or seen an oven should probably not be the one advising other new oven owners on how to use ovens that they actually have?
 

Tidgy's Dad

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2015
Messages
48,205
Location (City and/or State)
Fes, Morocco
Hahahaaaa. This ENTIRE thread and discussion was about raising sulcatas smoothly with or without humidity. The reason for continued discussion is that YOU are offering advice on a species that you have no experience with one way or another.

No need for any rudeness, insults, smart Alec comments, or any hostility at all, from anyone involved in this discussion. My preference would be for people lacking experience with any given species to not give specific advice about that species. Since this is a free country and everyone is allowed to express their opinion on this forum, I (we) can only advise readers when someone (you, in this case) has no experience with the species they are offering advice on.

When I start offering advice on manouria, Egyptian tortoises, spider tortoises or hinge backs, I invite you and everyone else to tell our readers that I have no experience with these species and have no idea what any given set of temperatures or humidity will produce for them. I also hope that when that day comes that you will be as polite and tolerant with me as I have been with you since you started doing this.

So what you're saying is, rightly or wrongly, that you consider Ascott's inexperience dangerous and you would be willing to 'sacrifice' a tortoise to someone you don't believe, rightly or wrongly, capable of rearing it properly, just to prove a point?


May I extend an offer to you as a demonstrate good will? I would like to give you a free sulcata hatchling, properly started and hand delivered to your door for you, so that you can raise it whatever way you think is best. I only ask that you share the whole experience here on the forum. Tell us what all the enclosure temperatures, humidity, and other parameters are and give us regular updates on the growth and health of your tortoise. If the eventual adult size and temperament of the sulcata species prevents you from doing this, I will extend the offer that you can return the tortoise to me at any time you decide it is getting too big or destructive. I offer this because I and several others here know what your results will be because we have first hand experience. We just have to show you now...
But wouldn't someone who had stuck their head in an oven hundreds of times, say an experienced oven repair man for example, be more qualified to give advice about the inner workings of an oven than someone who has only ever seen pictures of ovens, but never so much as even used one?

And wouldn't you want to point out that the person who had never even used or seen an oven should probably not be the one advising other new oven owners on how to use ovens that they actually have?[/QUOTE]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top