OH NO A HYBRID ! MY LEPRACUTTAS

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allegraf

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First the "exposing" comment is very lame

Very mature comment, the level of which is typical from you. When someone disagrees, you resort to name calling.

Miss Graf' -What?
 

dmmj

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I want a half man half monkey :)
 

N2TORTS

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allegraf said:
First the "exposing" comment is very lame

Very mature comment, the level of which is typical from you. When someone disagrees, you resort to name calling.

Miss Graf' -What?

No name calling here, Lets focus on the Rf's and Cherries are they the same species other than different locality?
 

dmmj

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A tad OT but can non cherries produce cherry heads and vice versa?
Also lets refrain from name calling
 

N2TORTS

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dmmj said:
A tad OT but can non cherries produce cherry heads and vice versa?
Also lets refrain from name calling

Good question Dj , lets see what the experts have to say~:D
 

allegraf

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Who are these experts you are challenging? This has been debated and debated as to whether the only differences between the cherryheads and the northern locale redfoots are in fact different species. There has been no in depth study as far as I know to make this determination. There are obvious differences between say a Colombian and a Brazilian, the plastron, the spurs and even the scale patterns on the head. We all know about the term "cherryhead" coming into use as a selling point to get more money for torts. That being said, you can breed a Brazilian and a Venezuelan and get a redfoot for sure, but is it a Brazilian or a Venezuelan? I choose not to intermingle the different locales and disagree with those that do. It is not necessary and generally is done only to make money. I prefer to keep breeding true to the locales that I have. Here in South Florida, the native green anoles can breed with the Cuban/Bahamian anole. It creates another anole but one that is no longer true to the native species.
 

N2TORTS

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allegraf said:
Who are these experts you are challenging? This has been debated and debated as to whether the only differences between the cherryheads and the northern locale redfoots are in fact different species. There has been no in depth study as far as I know to make this determination. There are obvious differences between say a Colombian and a Brazilian, the plastron, the spurs and even the scale patterns on the head. We all know about the term "cherryhead" coming into use as a selling point to get more money for torts. That being said, you can breed a Brazilian and a Venezuelan and get a redfoot for sure, but is it a Brazilian or a Venezuelan? I choose not to intermingle the different locales and disagree with those that do. It is not necessary and generally is done only to make money. I prefer to keep breeding true to the locales that I have. Here in South Florida, the native green anoles can breed with the Cuban/Bahamian anole. It creates another anole but one that is no longer true to the native species.

Interesting ...and I agree on the differences ( the many years dealing with them at a high level and seeing quite a few of them wild caught and captive bred) , but whats entertaining is your own hatchlings for sell commend the cherry price and not a redfoot hatchling price ? So there must some incentitive in making money and charging a "market price" for the term “cherry heads” ....correct? Plus the fact they usually are much more bold in appearance.
In the works are some folks at the San Diego Zoo and Scripps .. who are " in the works" of providing me with some interesting information about the DNA within my own animals used as "subjects". And if cost efficient may help others within the US to keep these so called pure strains ( much like the stud book for radi‘ ) . I firmly believe unless you yourself grabbed the first wild tort at its known location it would be pretty darn accurate of its " locality" ...other than that its second hand info!

JD~
 

allegraf

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I'm not sure how this became a discussion about me or why you feel the need for the innuendos that I am doing something illicit. I use the term "cherryhead" to market my hatchlings as it is the commonly known name. I am am a hobbyist that happens to breed Brazilian cherryhead redfoot tortoises. I do not do this for money, there is no way there is any profit in it, it is purely a hobby. I am not sure how it is entertaining either. It is apparent that you may have a problem with me personally. If that is so, just say it.
 

N2TORTS

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allegraf said:
I'm not sure how this became a discussion about me or why you feel the need for the innuendos that I am doing something illicit. I use the term "cherryhead" to market my hatchlings as it is the commonly known name. I am am a hobbyist that happens to breed Brazilian cherryhead redfoot tortoises. I do not do this for money, there is no way there is any profit in it, it is purely a hobby. I am not sure how it is entertaining either. It is apparent that you may have a problem with me personally. If that is so, just say it.

I guess the same way it went from the leppracuttas to the Hypo redfoot comment.....

I too breed Brazilian, as well as others. The hypos I owned 3 but sold one of the males couple years back. I have the pair now and the baby from last year. Of all my RF's and Cherries I know who’s breeding who and isn’t mature enough . Currently in the adults Cherry I have 2 males and 7 females. The redroots’ there is they hypo pair , 1 Colombo female ( fife's) ( just about old enough to breed) and 2 other females almost old enough to breed ( Kilgores).... plus the numerous young's and hatchlings.
I do though think a lot of myths and rumors go astray in forums such as this..... and its mostly second hand info.
I apologize for any misunderstanding you may have taken..it wasnt an attack on you or your tortoises.

J~
 

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A couple of points for Mark. Just for fun and discussion.

Elsewhere in the thread the term apples and oranges was used. According to my diversity professor in college, chimps and humans can more closely be compared to green apples and red apples. According to him, if the same criteria were used to classify us and the apes as were used for all other species, all the apes and humans would be in the same genus. This made too many people of the day back then a little squeamish, so they categorized humans differently.

There is some evidence to suggest that sulcatas do not store sperm for more than a few months. Jerry Fife did a presentation on this at the TTPG last November. Leopards can apparently store it for at least five years.

Sorry for the off topic discussion, but thought it might be interesting to some.
 

Jacqui

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N2TORTS said:
..it wasnt an attack on you or your tortoises.

J~

I am glad this is cleared up. Now let's get back to generalizations and debating the ethics of hybridization of tortoises (which I believe was suppose to be what this thread is about).
 

cdmay

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N2TORTS said:
Interesting ...and I agree on the differences ( the many years dealing with them at a high level and seeing quite a few of them wild caught and captive bred) , but whats entertaining is your own hatchlings for sell commend the cherry price and not a redfoot hatchling price ? So there must some incentitive in making money and charging a "market price" for the term “cherry heads” ....correct? Plus the fact they usually are much more bold in appearance.
In the works are some folks at the San Diego Zoo and Scripps .. who are " in the works" of providing me with some interesting information about the DNA within my own animals used as "subjects". And if cost efficient may help others within the US to keep these so called pure strains ( much like the stud book for radi‘ ) . I firmly believe unless you yourself grabbed the first wild tort at its known location it would be pretty darn accurate of its " locality" ...other than that its second hand info!

JD~

Not wanting to step in the dog poop but....

"...but whats entertaining is your own hatchlings for sell commend the cherry price and not a redfoot hatchling price ? So there must some incentitive in making money and charging a "market price" for the term “cherry heads” ....correct?"

I don't understand your obvious jab at Allegra selling her cherry heads for more than what the typical northern type red-foot goes for. Allegra didn't come up with the (stupid) name of cherry head but since she has that type of tortoise, why wouldn't she use the name that most people are familiar with?
JD you produce cherry heads now, correct? Are you implying that you will sell your cherry heads for the same price as a Surinam hatchling?
Some races are simply more in demand and command higher prices that their similar cousins. For example, the South African leopard tortoises go for way more than ones from elsewhere. Also, speaking of red-footed tortoises, the giant Bolivian and Paraguayan forms sell for a lot more than even cherry heads go for. Does that make the people who breed them and then sell their offspring for 'market value' bad?

I firmly believe unless you yourself grabbed the first wild tort at its known location it would be pretty darn accurate of its " locality" ...other than that its second hand info!

Of course it's second hand info. But that doesn't make it wrong. Using your argument you could technically claim that the ancestors of your breeder leopard tortoises may not have come from Africa. I mean, you didn't actually see them captured right? So who knows, maybe they were really from Japan.
Some keepers intentionally play dumb when it comes to breeding responsibly by claiming that 'nobody really knows' what is what.
Don't be one of those guys.
 

N2TORTS

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JD you produce cherry heads now, correct?
( I did 10 years ago Carl.... matter of fact you and I have some of the same gene lines in a few of our adults).



Some races are simply more in demand and command higher prices that their similar cousins.
(So is it species or cousin’s? BIG DIFFERENCE!)

Does that make the people who breed them and then sell their offspring for 'market value' bad?
( Not at all)



Using your argument you could technically claim that the ancestors of your breeder leopard tortoises may not have come from Africa. I mean, you didn't actually see them captured right? So who knows, maybe they were really from Japan.

(I never knew leopard tortoises were indigenous to Japan? ) :p
 

JacksonR

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I missed the good part of the debate....

Personally I don't think hybrids should be produced. If hybridization in tortoises becomes common it's going to be hard to know what's pure or not. Gonna get all muddy...
 

Madkins007

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Tom said:
A couple of points for Mark. Just for fun and discussion.

Elsewhere in the thread the term apples and oranges was used. According to my diversity professor in college, chimps and humans can more closely be compared to green apples and red apples. According to him, if the same criteria were used to classify us and the apes as were used for all other species, all the apes and humans would be in the same genus. This made too many people of the day back then a little squeamish, so they categorized humans differently.

There is some evidence to suggest that sulcatas do not store sperm for more than a few months. Jerry Fife did a presentation on this at the TTPG last November. Leopards can apparently store it for at least five years.

Sorry for the off topic discussion, but thought it might be interesting to some.

I have heard similar things about humans and chimps, which actually may make it an even better example of the leo/sully cross, since if they CAN cross, they may not be separate species.

It also does not surprise me that sullys may not store sperm as long as some others. I would bet that we could chart viable sperm storage with regional temp/humidity/water access levels since to store sperm means to store water that may be desperately needed elsewhere in the system.

I kind of like when discussions like this can take on these side trips without really derailing the whole thing. Makes the thread more fun!


For those who may not be familiar with the whole 'red-footed tortoise/cherry-head/different species' bit...

The red-footed tortoise covers a range roughly the size of the US. Like the American box turtles, the range is broken by mountains, rivers (including a little stream named the Amazon), and so on. At the heart of this habitat is the Amazon rainforest.

Within the rain forest, the yellow-footed tortoise inhabits the 'real' rainforest, while the red-foot tends to dwell in habitats along the edge. In general, the yellows are better suited to the flooding and heavy rain in the deep rainforest- for example they rarely use burrows for hides (flooding), and lay eggs in leaf debris piles instead of digging nests that can also flood.

Over the last nine million or so years, the rainforest has swollen and shrunk many times. Sometimes, as it did so, it left viable breeding populations of red-footeds isolated from other populations.

Modern DNA research indicates that the red-footeds have at least 5 distinct DNA patterns- those from the Colombia area, those from the Andes north into Panama, those from the Andes east along the Gulf and Atlantic- Venezuela to Suriname (or whatever that last country is), those from eastern Brazil, and those from the Gran Chaco region southwest of Brazil.

There are coloration differences between all groups, distinct anatomic differences between several groups, and behavior differences between at least a couple of the groups (such as preferred temps, courtship and aggression behaviors, etc.)

Right now they are all considered one species by most authorities, but there are many who have been saying that they need more investigation for some time. However, since the wild animals are rather remote and not really endangered, and there are probably millions of other species that need attention as well, the investigation ain't happening quickly.

Depending on who you talk to, there are a few likely possible outcomes when they DO check it out...
- No change. The groups would be considered races if they even get that much official recognition.
- They all become subspecies, probably of the race from Venezuela to the east since that is the first group to be cataloged and is what all sources use when they describe a 'typical' red-footed.
- They all or most all become species on their own. This is probably the least likely scenario, but since there is also at least somewhat of a push to minimize subspecies, it is still possible.
- They make two species and the others become subspecies or races of the these two.

If I could make a prediction, I would say they become two species-
- Chelonoidis carbonaria, the Northern red-footed tortoise, with three subspecies-
---- C. c. carbonaria, the Guyanan red-foot, from Venezuelan Andes east
---- C. c. morrocoi*, the Panamanian red-foot, from Panama to the Andes
---- C. c. carbonaria*, the Colombian red-footed, in Colombia
- C. tabulata**, the Southern red-footed tortoise, with two subspecies
---- C. t. tabulata*, the Brazilian red-footed tortoise (Note- these seem to come in two color phases- yellow and red. The reds are commonly called 'cherryheads')
---- C. t. moteloi*, the Gran Chaco red-footed tortoise, from southwest of Brazil

(I freely admit I made up the *'ed names, mostly based on the common local name for the species. **- The name 'tabulata' comes from some early named species and was used for red- and yellow-footeds both. Since it is unused today, I think it is available and there is a general policy of using the oldest known name when possible.)
 

EricIvins

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allegraf said:
Who are these experts you are challenging? This has been debated and debated as to whether the only differences between the cherryheads and the northern locale redfoots are in fact different species. There has been no in depth study as far as I know to make this determination. There are obvious differences between say a Colombian and a Brazilian, the plastron, the spurs and even the scale patterns on the head. We all know about the term "cherryhead" coming into use as a selling point to get more money for torts. That being said, you can breed a Brazilian and a Venezuelan and get a redfoot for sure, but is it a Brazilian or a Venezuelan? I choose not to intermingle the different locales and disagree with those that do. It is not necessary and generally is done only to make money. I prefer to keep breeding true to the locales that I have. Here in South Florida, the native green anoles can breed with the Cuban/Bahamian anole. It creates another anole but one that is no longer true to the native species.

Sorry for bringing this O/T again, but I do alot of work with native/invasive Anoles, and mis-information really bothers me.........

Green Anoles ( A. Carolinensis ) do not reproduce with Brown Anoles ( A. Sagrei ).........Browns will dominate and suppress a Green population to the point where population density is greatly reduced. Adult Browns will also predate on small Greens. They way they "communicate" and court is completely different, hence why they don't cross in situ........

I don't know where the confusion came from, but more than likely deals with the many invasive Anole species, of which some are very similiar in appearence to the native Green Anole.........Some of these invasive species are naturally found close together in their native range(s), and may or may not interbreed.......I would venture to say we have alteast 10 different established invasive Anole species in Florida, if not 15 or 20........ ( These animals are the result of the Plant/Fruit/Island trade, not the Pet trade - just an FYI )

It's mis-information like this that kills the argument over Taxonomy/Hybrids/what ever you want to call it. You can do this over and over with ( insert species here ), but what's the sense when the information isn't correct to begin with? Work is underway on the Taxonomy of African Tortoises, and what may come of it will make 90% of animals in the US "un-pure"............

What's everyone going to do then? The same thought goes for Redfoots and just about any type of Tortoise that we have available in captivity........
 
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