OH NO A HYBRID ! MY LEPRACUTTAS

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N2TORTS

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Holly Anole ~ EEEE.....:D
He is absolutly right!........ NOW WERE TALKING!
 

dmarcus

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If anyone has a hybrid, half breed or what ever that they don't want, send it to me and I will love it.... Ops I went off topic...
 

HLogic

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Just a couple of notes:

I am a Hispanic Caucasian.

C. tabulata could not be used as Testudo tabulata was used to describe the Yellow-footed tortoise - although quite haphazardly.

Canis familiaris is recognized as a species and Felis sylvestris catus as a subspecies, whether or not they originated as hybrids 5,000 to 40,000 years ago - IMO they are inbreds more so than hybrids or for that matter species (and yes, I like dogs and cats and goldfish and even some people).

Hybridization, historically, was used to produce plants and animals for consumption, as food or as draught [draft] animals with the goal of making them more suitable, more productive, stronger, etc. The current trend of doing so with 'pet' species is almost purely profit-driven.

Chimpanzees have 48 chromosomes (24 pairs), humans have 46 (23 pairs) which suggests they are very unlikely to be the same genus.

There may be another species of Chelonoidis (http://www.geneticsmr.com/year2011/vol10-2/pdf/ta034.pdf).

The ethics of hybridization are strictly limited to debate. It is an opinion, no more, no less and combatants in that debate are under no obligation to accept their opponents' view - accept it and move on!
 

dmmj

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So then no half man half monkey? :(
 

allegraf

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It's mis-information like this that kills the argument over Taxonomy/Hybrids/what ever you want to call it. You can do this over and over with ( insert species here ), but what's the sense when the information isn't correct to begin with? Work is underway on the Taxonomy of African Tortoises, and what may come of it will make 90% of animals in the US "un-pure

I stand corrected. Forgive me for the mis information spread by my high school biology teacher from Miami where the brown anoles are common. I have no problem admitting I was wrong for relying on what i mistook for common miami knowledge. But enough about my analogy with lizards. I still do not support the practice of "hybridization".
 

BrookeB

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I don't feel the same as most of the people on this subject, I like hybrid torts. As long as they breed on there own (I don't mean in the wild) and the offspring do not have any health issues or deformities I don't see a issue.. Humans have been doing this kind of thing for 100s of years with all sorts of animals. I know that this is not how every one feels but personally I would buy a hybrid LEPRACUTTA and support the breeder. This is just my opinion please don't hate me for saying so :)
 

N2TORTS

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At the gene level, chimps and people are over 98% the same. Chimps and humans have a different number of chromosomes, but because they are so similar they probably have about the same number of genes. In fact, a close look at chimp and human chromosomes shows that one of the human chromosomes is really made up of 2 of the chimp chromosomes (or vice versa).

In terms of the Y chromosome, human Y chromosomes are a little bigger than chimp Y chromosomes. However, the Y chromosomes in both species are very small. Since the Y chromosome pretty much only carries instructions for making males, humans and chimps probably have about the same number of critical male genes as well.

All of this brings up an interesting point about chromosomes. There often isn't a relationship between number of chromosomes and number of genes. For example, we have 46 chromosomes while the simple goldfish has 94 and the toucan has 106!

Hummmm.............:rolleyes:
 

lisa127

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I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.

I just wanted to say that the purebred dogs we have today are what is unnatural....not the mutts. So comparing it to mixed breed dogs does not even make sense. We created the purebreds. The natural wild dog, if we let nature take it's course, is in fact what we would call a mutt. Nondescript brown dog with erect ears and curly tail, about 30 to 40 lbs. So in reality these hybrid tortoises should be compared to the Purebred dogs man created and not the mutt dogs.
 

Madkins007

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HLogic said:
Just a couple of notes:

I am a Hispanic Caucasian.

C. tabulata could not be used as Testudo tabulata was used to describe the Yellow-footed tortoise - although quite haphazardly.

Canis familiaris is recognized as a species and Felis sylvestris catus as a subspecies, whether or not they originated as hybrids 5,000 to 40,000 years ago - IMO they are inbreds more so than hybrids or for that matter species (and yes, I like dogs and cats and goldfish and even some people).

Hybridization, historically, was used to produce plants and animals for consumption, as food or as draught [draft] animals with the goal of making them more suitable, more productive, stronger, etc. The current trend of doing so with 'pet' species is almost purely profit-driven.

Chimpanzees have 48 chromosomes (24 pairs), humans have 46 (23 pairs) which suggests they are very unlikely to be the same genus.

There may be another species of Chelonoidis (http://www.geneticsmr.com/year2011/vol10-2/pdf/ta034.pdf).

The ethics of hybridization are strictly limited to debate. It is an opinion, no more, no less and combatants in that debate are under no obligation to accept their opponents' view - accept it and move on!

As usual, great points but your link does not open. Does it refer to the two species that used to be clumped as Chacos? (I don't recall any details offhand but have seen something about this.)
 

tortadise

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I am a strong strong believer of the redfoot statements. Until I came to this forum I had thought I was the only person that knew or kept different countries apart. I have quite a few different redfoots. All are kept separate from different breeders or imported batches. Most were imports during mid 90's. I have had a suriname male successfully breed a Guyana female (Mishap of course my huge male towered over the divider wall by climbing on the other females. They hatched successfully. Some had orange heads and legs which is predominant in the Guyana species and some had yellow heads and red legs which predominate in the Suriname species. On another interesting breeding speculation I've done on Venezuelans, I had what I thought to be worked out as a definite country identification chart. I was wrong on one particular animal. I thought for certain I had picked up another Venezuelan female, the male bred with her numerous years and she would drop unviable eggs every year. So I closely looked at her and my "identification chart" and found she was a Guyana. So putting her with the Guyana group she had been bred by the Guyana male and hatched 100% every year on out. It gets tough when it's so detailed like that but I believe they are all "breed able" but a hybrid. I do agree probably 90% of the redfoot market is somewhat crossed down the line. Look at the blondes and so called xanthic redfoots that people are hatching I'm sure those are just related bloodlines and really a genetic deformity but it gets a dollar from greedy breeders and maybe not even knowingly having same bloodlines. Its too hard to do it now but I believe a stud book or registry of some sort should be used to show bloodline origins at least when used in captive breeding. It might help. But then if your animals are imports they too could be related.
 

HLogic

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N2TORTS said:
At the gene level [emphasis added], chimps and people are over 98% the same....we have 46 chromosomes while the simple goldfish has 94 and the toucan has 106!

All of that is true and also essentially immaterial. Humans have ~20,000 genes and ~3,000 million base pairs. A fritillary butterfly has ~27,000 genes and 120,000 million base pairs whereas cress has ~27,000 genes but only 100 million base pairs. Do those numbers suggest humans are more closely related to cress than butterflies? (the answer is no). Chromosomes are simply a mechanism to allow the production of a complete genome in mitosis or a haploid genome in meiosis. The differing chromosomal counts were brought up as an easy way to understand the difference.

Greater than 50% of the human genome, with estimates as high as 70% is believed to be noncoding (i.e. it does not serve as the template for protein synthesis or expression/regulation). [NOTE: This value has dropped from 95+% recently so these figures may also change.] The genetic comparisons conducted between chimps and humans ignore this portion entirely. The sequencing of the chimp genome was not executed under the same scrutiny and stringent requirements as that of the human genome and includes fragments and random sequences that have not been resolved to contiguous sequences. The comparisons that have been conducted used the human genome as a template for ordering chimp genes and the fragments mentioned based on the idea of similarity between the two and were targeted to chimp sequences that are recognized and similar to human sequences thus biasing the values toward similarity. Other sequence comparisons have shown values of 85 - 90% - the same difference demonstrated between humans and cats. You should have cited the crux of the article: http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=69

In theory, two species' genomes could be identical and still be separate taxonomic entities. It is not so much the content in a genome as the expression of those genes that dictate what an organism is.

Madkins007 said:
HLogic said:
...your link does not open.

Sorry, the ")" was included when the forum software parsed the URL. The correct link is: http://www.geneticsmr.com/year2011/vol10-2/pdf/ta034.pdf

tortadise said:
Until I came to this forum I had thought I was the only person that knew or kept different countries apart...
...
I thought for certain I had picked up another Venezuelan female, the male bred with her numerous years and she would drop unviable eggs every year. So I closely looked at her and my "identification chart" and found she was a Guyana.

Look at the blondes and so called xanthic redfoots that people are hatching I'm sure those are just related bloodlines and really a genetic deformity but it gets a dollar from greedy breeders and maybe not even knowingly having same bloodlines.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=45502#ixzz1sn1Wo9K3

You suffered the luck of the draw, a specimen of insufficient age or vigor or some other reason for infertility with respect to the cross between the Venezuelan and Guyanan. They are the same species and only vary slightly (except at opposing extremes of the range). The range of the 'Guyana Shield' (a.k.a. northern, northeastern) redfoot is contiguous across eastern Venezuela and western Guyana. There are definite color/patterning differences between the northern populations as the Orinoco river acts as a physical barrier between them. The differences in the southern part of the range are much less distinct. For the record, I know of viable Venezuelan x Guyanan crosses. I have several eggs of said cross in my incubator currently and have hatched several dozen in that same incubator.

Xanthic redfoots are real but are actually anerythristic (no red). All 'normal' redfoots produce xanthins as pigments. Aneryrithristics naturally occur as a phenotype in certain parts of their range. I have 10 from Colombia - additional detail is contained in other posts on this forum. They also occur in Panama and Barbados (probably introduced from Colombia). They are a normal color phase much like hair & eye color are part of normal color phases of humans - same species, different color/pattern.

They are, in a sense, "related bloodlines" as are all taxonomic and geographical groupings. They are also "a genetic deformity" or more accurately, a genetic mutation as they either do not have or express:
1. the carotenoid pigments contributing to red color
2. the transport mechanism of carotenoid pigments to chromatophores

This is not to say they are genetically inferior, inbred or otherwise artificially manipulated to produce the anerythristic individuals. Should they be sold at a premium? Only if the market will bear the burden and it does seem as though the market is willing to pay premium prices for less commonly available, more colorful or otherwise aberrant phenotypes. Does the market also support paying premiums for hybrids? Indeed it does. That which is unusual, rare or unique always does, it's called supply & demand.
 

Tom

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EricIvins said:
What's everyone going to do then?

Well I can't speak for "everyone", but I can tell you what I will do. I am already doing it. I have sources for 3 different types of babcocki leopards, 1 type of South African leopard, and 1 type of sulcata that are all location specific. I am going to acquire, breed and sell babies from all of these. And I will make sure the buyers and everyone else knows what they are getting. Since many of the Testudo are still being imported, I'll bet I can do it with them too.

My current lot of sulcatas were all acquired before I had any knowledge of all this stuff or gave it much thought. Now that I know better, I will DO better...


dmmj said:
So then no half man half monkey? :(

He only listed chromosome count for a chimp, which is an ape, not a monkey, so there is still hope for your man/monkey hybrid...
 

dmmj

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I will settle this once and for all, with 2 words. Flying monkeys, need I say more?
 

tortadise

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Art-

I do have to say I thought that was the case with my Venezuelan Guyana breeding failure. I realize that they are the "same" I do still keep ally countries kept separately. It seems that my male Venezuelan has no problems breeding with other females that are kept with him and knowingly Venezuelan. Same with my Guyana she produces without problem with the male kept with her as well as all the other female Guyana redfoots with that male. I'm not going to try and breed them again because I keep my countries differentiates. I do believe the statement of introduced species in the central or island variety. I see a lot of bolivian characteristics in my panananian male. A lot of characteristics of Suriname in my costa rican, and Trinidad and Tobago look just like a cherry head. When I acquired these country locals from a good friend of mine who is an importer. They were all around 4" and at that time I had some brazilians,Guyana, and columbians around the same size. The central and island breeds tend to show a much slower growth rate and smaller size. I really don't know how big they are going to get. Still a quandary of my observations. All in all they may be introduced species many years ago but I can say in my keeping and experience I have noticed a huge differential element in all of them. Same thing with Brazilian retail boas when I bred them. Soany different locales they could breed together but has very large differences in size and appearance.
 

EricIvins

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Tom said:
EricIvins said:
What's everyone going to do then?

Well I can't speak for "everyone", but I can tell you what I will do. I am already doing it. I have sources for 3 different types of babcocki leopards, 1 type of South African leopard, and 1 type of sulcata that are all location specific. I am going to acquire, breed and sell babies from all of these. And I will make sure the buyers and everyone else knows what they are getting. Since many of the Testudo are still being imported, I'll bet I can do it with them too.

My current lot of sulcatas were all acquired before I had any knowledge of all this stuff or gave it much thought. Now that I know better, I will DO better...


dmmj said:
So then no half man half monkey? :(

He only listed chromosome count for a chimp, which is an ape, not a monkey, so there is still hope for your man/monkey hybrid...





Testudo? Unless you're only talking about European Testudo, you will get NO reliable locality information what so ever........Been there, done that......There are only "hubs" where Tortoises are shipped out.......Nothing more, nothing less......
 

Tom

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Hmm.... I can't argue this one, because you might be right. I know a few importers here on the West coast, now you've inspired me to look into it a bit more...
 

Madkins007

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(Off topic to hybrids, sorry!)

Art/HLogic- If I read the abstract correctly (and most of it is over my head), they found 2 DNA patterns in C. carbonaria, the red-footed tortoise, and feel that this means that there are two species represented. I could not see where they discussed where the true origins of the animals were, how many were tested, etc. but it does generally seem to support this paper:

VARGAS-RAMIREZ, Mario; Maran, Jerome; Fritz, Uwe. "Red- and yellow-footed tortoises, Chelonoidis carbonaria and C. denticulata (Reptilia: Testudines: Testudinidae), in South American savannahs and forests: do their phylogeographies reflect distinct habitats?" (http://www.fundacionbiodiversa.org/pdf/Mario/Vargas_2010_Chelonoidis.pdf )

Except that Vargas-Ramirez found 5 types.

I gotta get you to write me up a 'workingman's briefing' on genetics in general and red-footed in specific.

Oh, and what do you mean I can't use tabulata? Since it was misapplied in the first place for both reds and yellows, and no one else seems to want it, I call dibs. I doubt old Leopold Fitzinger will argue.

Of course, I could suggest C. territris, Schwigger's name from 1812. It is an even older term! Of course, Fitzinger also used 'boiei' back in 1835ish, too, didn't he? I don't like it as much for some reason, but it might work.

OK, getting back to the topic...


Bottom line- is it OK to cross-breed tortoises?
1. - Is it OK when they are of the same species but different races, color phases, regions, etc.?
1. a. ---- Does it make a difference WHY you do it? (desirable characteristics? Cool colors? Curiosity?)

2. - Is it still OK when they are different species and it takes more human intervention and possibly has a higher potential for defects- but you have lots of interesting potential as well?

Some of this will be based on your sense of ethics and morality, and we all differ in this, so let's be nice to those wrong-headed idiots that have the audacity to disagree with our stance.
 

JacksonR

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Hybrids sure have ruined the Travancore tortoise in this country. Not related to whatever you guys are talking about...lol
 
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